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Author | Topic: The black hole at the center of the Universe. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Panda Member (Idle past 3742 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Peter Lamont writes:
Ok...I'll bite.
I wish you would read it. quote:Well, to follow your obscure parlance... There are also:
"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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Panda Member (Idle past 3742 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Taq writes:
That must be how the slow-moving serial killer manages to catch the fleeing teenager in horror films... Percy, any accelerating expansion is inward. How can you claim that when the space between any two points is increasing? Edited by Panda, : No reason given."There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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Panda Member (Idle past 3742 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
I did not claim anything regarding regarding this:
Peter Lamont writes:
I did not say that air doesn't travel in to the nozzle. I'm sure you know that as the air approaches the nozzle it's in its most expanded state. Are you going to tell me that's not Inward? Here is what I wrote:Panda writes:
So, back to what you wanted: your 'Observational Evidence'...
There are also: Starts slowly and then slows downAccelerates slowly and then accelerates quickly Maintains a steady rate of expansion Maintains a steady rate of expansion and then slows down Maintains a steady rate of expansion and then stops Accelerates, slows down and then accelerates again Starts quickly and then accelerates etc. So, it doesn't look like your initial premise holds up.Peter Lamont writes:
No - there are many kinds of expansion (see above). There are two kinds of expansion Edited by Panda, : No reason given."There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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Panda Member (Idle past 3742 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Peter Lamont writes:
...and several other kinds of expansion (see my previous 2 posts).
2 kinds of expansion (okay so far?) the first (1) starts by accelerating and then slows down (an explosion - are we okay so far?) and the second kind (2) which starts slowly and then accelerates; Peter Lamont writes:
I can't understand why you are unable to see the other kinds of expansions I listed.
Please tell me which part you can't understand. Peter Lamont writes:
Let's focus on one claim at a time.
Any 'accelerating expansion' is inward. Outward expansions all slow down. If it's accelerating, it's Inward. Can you understand this? Peter Lamont writes:
No - there are many kinds of expansion. Observational Evidence...There are two kinds of expansion, the first kind (1) Accelerates and then slows down, and the second kind (2) which starts slowly and then accelerates. "There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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Panda Member (Idle past 3742 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
PL writes:
So - you weren't saying what you were really saying. What I'm really saying is, 'There are 2 kinds of expansion -(1) Outward and (2) Inward. Before I go down this new rabbit hole - are you retracting your claim that:
Paul Lamont writes:
You are now abandoning your original claim and are now saying:
There are two kinds of expansion, the first kind (1) Accelerates and then slows down, and the second kind (2) which starts slowly and then accelerates.Paul Lamont writes:
Correct? There are 2 kinds of expansion -(1) Outward and (2) Inward Please confirm that you no longer believe that "There are two kinds of expansion, the first kind (1) Accelerates and then slows down, and the second kind (2) which starts slowly and then accelerates."
Peter Lamont writes:
Well, it would help if you didn't keep changing your claims. Let me be perfectly clear. Edited by Panda, : No reason given."There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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Panda Member (Idle past 3742 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Peter Lamont writes:
What slows down? Their speed. Outward expansions all slow down and stop.How did they get that speed? From accelerating. So, your own definition says that outward expansions all accelerate, slow down and then stop. Peter Lamont writes:
...and also outward expansions. The only kind of expansion that accelerates is Inward.If you don't believe me, ask Peter Lamont. "There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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Panda Member (Idle past 3742 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
nvm
Edited by Panda, : No reason given."There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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Panda Member (Idle past 3742 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Peter Lamont writes:
An "initial kick"? Outward expansions generally start from an initial kick, and once the initial kick is over, they tend to slow down and stop.What do you think the "initial kick" does? It accelerates the outward expansion. Your claim that outward expansions do not accelerate is contradicted by your own statement. Edited by Panda, : No reason given."There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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Panda Member (Idle past 3742 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Peter Lamont writes:
Yes, outward expansions accelerate. Outward expansions start by accelerating.I agree. But you don't seem to agree:
Peter Lamont writes: You have an accelerating expansion that goes Outward. Outward expansions all slow down and stop. The only kind of expansion that accelerates is Inward.Peter Lamont writes: Panda, Outward expansions all slow down and stop. The only kind of expansion that accelerates is Inward (they all do.) Too bad you can't see this. Peter Lamont writes: If the expansion is accelerating, it's Inward. Outward expansions all slow down and stop. Only Inward expansions accelerate.Peter Lamont writes: Any 'accelerating expansion' is Inward. For one thing - Outward Expansions all slow down and stop. The only kind of expansion that accelerates is Inward. Edited by Panda, : No reason given. Edited by Panda, : No reason given. Edited by Panda, : No reason given."There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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Panda Member (Idle past 3742 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Peter Lamont writes:
Yes - it is an accelerating outward expansion. Panda, I repeat, explosions (Big-Bang) start by accelerating. That's the initial kick.No need to repeat it. I agree - it is an accelerating outward expansion. Peter Lamont writes:
Even if the outward expansion accelerates for just 1 second, it is still an accelerating outward expansion. How long does an explosion last - half a second?This clearly conflicts with your other claim that "Any 'accerlerating expansion' is Inward." Peter Lamont writes:
I've told you what I think: I think your statements are contradictory.
Let me know what you think. As for those statements I made, I stand by them. "explosions (Big-Bang) start by accelerating." contradicts "The only kind of expansion that accelerates is Inward." I don't know how to make it any clearer. Edited by Panda, : No reason given."There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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Panda Member (Idle past 3742 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Peter Lamont writes:
Yes - it is an accelerating outward expansion. Outward Expansions start with an initial kick - they start by accelerating. It is an outward expansion, yes?And it is accelerating, yes? Therefore....it is an....accelerating outward expansion, yes? The outward expansion is accelerating, yes? Peter Lamont writes:
But if you listen to what Peter Lamont and I have been saying: "Outward Expansions ... they start by accelerating." you will see that both inward AND outward expansions accelerate. The only kind of expansion that accelerates and keeps accelerating is Inward. Is that clear enough for you?"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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Panda Member (Idle past 3742 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Peter Lamont writes:
So - finally you agree that both inward AND outward expansions accelerate. Clear Panda, totally clear.Great. Expansion (outward expansion) goes through the following stages:1) Zero velocity 2) Acceleration 3) Deceleration 4) Zero velocity Then contraction (inward expansion) goes through the following stages:1) Zero velocity 2) Acceleration 3) Deceleration 4) Zero velocity Ok - let's look at your new claim:
Peter Lamont writes:
What do you mean by 'continues'? The only kind of expansion that continues is Inward.Are you saying that inward expansions never slow down and stop? Edited by Panda, : No reason given."There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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Panda Member (Idle past 3742 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Peter Lamont writes:
One issue at a time. How can it be a contraction with everything moving away from everything else?I'll come back to that. Peter Lamont writes:
It is in between 'terminal velocity' and 'stop'. An Inward expansion continues to accelerate to a terminal velocity, and then it stops. Where is the decceleration?You can't go from 'moving' to 'stop' without decelerating. Peter Lamont writes:
If you didn't slow down and stop then you would shoot past the centre of the black hole and head off back out in to space. Do you deccelerate when you fall into a black hole? That's ridiculous - you just go straight in at terminal velocity. So, unless you have an alternative way to reduce the speed from the terminal velocity to rest, then contractions (inward expansion) decelerate."There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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Panda Member (Idle past 3742 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Peter Lamont writes:
Expansion/Contraction is not affected by spin. Panda, if the black hole is spinning, and its spin matches your terminal velocity, you're not going to slow down ever! If you inflate a balloon while it is spinning, it still expands (outward expansion) at the same speed as when it is not spinning. If you deflate a balloon while it is spinning, is still contracts (inward expansion) at the same speed as when it is not spinning. Expansion is measured by the change in distance between the expansion 'surface' and the centre of the expansion.Even if an object at the centre of the expansion is rotating, that does not affect how far the surface of the expansion is from the centre. Let's look at your own words again:
Peter Lamont writes:
So....how does it stop without decelerating? An Inward expansion continues to accelerate to a terminal velocity, and then it stops.I am not putting words in to your mouth - this is what you said and I am simply trying to get you to understand what you have said. You say that the expansion stops.
How can it stop without decelerating? So - to try and put it as simply as possible:How does something stop without slowing down? Peter Lamont writes:
If you don't want people pointing out your mistakes, then perhaps posting them on a discussion forum is not the best idea? So let's keep this discussion at a scientific level, without your 'splitting hairs'. Can we?"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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Panda Member (Idle past 3742 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
CS writes:
*nods* The average density for the donut only has one value, there is no greater or lesser one.This does seem to be the main point that Peter is unable to grasp in his "Where is the 'average density 'greatest?" question. "There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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