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Author Topic:   The black hole at the center of the Universe.
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 91 of 305 (700070)
05-29-2013 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Peter Lamont
05-28-2013 6:02 PM


Re: The black hole at the center of your argument
Peter Eater writes:
A low pressure is the same thing as expansion.
And would show blue-shift, not red-shift.
Seriously, you live in a black hole that has been turned inside out. The quicker you accept that, the closer you will be to doing actual science.
The reason it's accelerating is, some 11-dimensional bullshit yet to be properly explained.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-28-2013 6:02 PM Peter Lamont has replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 305 (700072)
05-29-2013 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Percy
05-29-2013 7:01 PM


Hopefully I'll recover soon.
I think I need a 12 step forum.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 305 (700099)
05-30-2013 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Peter Lamont
05-29-2013 4:48 PM


Okay, Catholic Scientist- With air going into a vacuum-cleaner, the air loses pressure as it approaches the nozzle and that's the same thing as expansion. Where is the contraction?
The air molecules that are moving inwards to the nozzle. Some of them will be moving towards other air molecules.
Our Universe is a vortex, like the Milky Way - but if it passes thru' a particularly dense part of space, it could grow. That's why I don't like to say it's contracting.
Then many of the galaxies would be moving towards other ones. But when we look at the galaxies, almost every single one is moving away from us. If many of them were moving inwards, then we should see them doing that, but we don't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-29-2013 4:48 PM Peter Lamont has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-30-2013 3:00 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
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Peter Lamont
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 147
Joined: 09-11-2012


Message 94 of 305 (700128)
05-30-2013 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Panda
05-29-2013 5:58 AM


Re: Uhh ... Well ...
Panda, I'm really surprised you don't understand. Let me be absoutely clear.
2 kinds of expansion (okay so far?) the first (1) starts by accelerating and then slows down (an explosion - are we okay so far?) and the second kind (2) which starts slowly and then accelerates; Air moving towards the nozzle of a Central Vac starts slowly and then accelerates.
Please tell me which part you can't understand.
Any 'accelerating expansion' is inward. Outward expansions all slow down. If it's accelerating, it's Inward. Can you understand this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Panda, posted 05-29-2013 5:58 AM Panda has replied

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 Message 97 by Panda, posted 05-30-2013 2:58 PM Peter Lamont has replied

  
Peter Lamont
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 147
Joined: 09-11-2012


Message 95 of 305 (700129)
05-30-2013 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Iblis
05-29-2013 10:42 PM


Re: The black hole at the center of your argument
Iblis, the Observable Universe is expanding - red shifted. Can we agree? Any expansion is going to be red-shifted. I thought you knew
that!
A black hole turned inside out? How do you do that?
I explain why the expansion is accelerating in my 'Observational Evidence' on page 1 of this thread.

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Peter Lamont
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 147
Joined: 09-11-2012


Message 96 of 305 (700131)
05-30-2013 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by NoNukes
05-29-2013 10:54 PM


No Nukes, I don't understand. Please try to stay co-herant.

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Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 97 of 305 (700132)
05-30-2013 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Peter Lamont
05-30-2013 2:19 PM


Re: Uhh ... Well ...
Peter Lamont writes:
2 kinds of expansion (okay so far?) the first (1) starts by accelerating and then slows down (an explosion - are we okay so far?) and the second kind (2) which starts slowly and then accelerates;
...and several other kinds of expansion (see my previous 2 posts).
Peter Lamont writes:
Please tell me which part you can't understand.
I can't understand why you are unable to see the other kinds of expansions I listed.
Peter Lamont writes:
Any 'accelerating expansion' is inward. Outward expansions all slow down. If it's accelerating, it's Inward. Can you understand this?
Let's focus on one claim at a time.
Peter Lamont writes:
Observational Evidence...
There are two kinds of expansion, the first kind (1) Accelerates and then slows down, and the second kind (2) which starts slowly and then accelerates.
No - there are many kinds of expansion.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
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Peter Lamont
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 147
Joined: 09-11-2012


Message 98 of 305 (700133)
05-30-2013 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by New Cat's Eye
05-30-2013 10:08 AM


Catholic Scientist, the air enters the nozzle in its most expanded state and at its highest speed, You're thinking this would be blue shifted? I disagree.
A Galaxy can grow, Catholic Scientist, if it passes thru' a particularly 'rich' zone in Space, I think that's how many of them reached their present size.
Why would this cause the Galaxies to approach each other? I don't understand that. Please explain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-30-2013 10:08 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-30-2013 3:41 PM Peter Lamont has replied
 Message 106 by Taq, posted 05-30-2013 6:06 PM Peter Lamont has replied

  
Peter Lamont
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 147
Joined: 09-11-2012


Message 99 of 305 (700135)
05-30-2013 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by JonF
05-28-2013 8:13 PM


Re: Context
John F, are you going to tell me acceleration doesn't lead to loss of pressure? And yes, the air going over the airfoil has to do this in the same amount of time - definitely. If this air was slower, it would build up into a high pressure. Faster? why would it travel faster - faster then it already does?
Incoherant gibbering? That's an insult - but I'll answer it anyway. I make an effort to be as clear as I can. Please show me the 'incoherant gibbering' as you call it.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 305 (700138)
05-30-2013 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Peter Lamont
05-30-2013 3:00 PM


Catholic Scientist, the air enters the nozzle in its most expanded state and at its highest speed, You're thinking this would be blue shifted?
If galaxies were following the same kind of pattern, then some of them would be moving towards us and they would be blue-shifted.
Why would this cause the Galaxies to approach each other? I don't understand that. Please explain.
The tip of the nozzle is smaller in size than the room it is sucking from. That means that some of the air molecules have to move towards each other.
Here's a vortex:
The portions to the right of the center are pointed towards the portions right below them. They are moving towards each other. If they were galaxies, one would appear blue-shifted to the other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-30-2013 3:00 PM Peter Lamont has replied

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 101 of 305 (700148)
05-30-2013 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Peter Lamont
05-29-2013 5:26 PM


First off - Taq you have to understand the Universe isn't expanding.
All of the evidence indicates that the universe is expanding. That is what you need to understand.
Anybody who claims he can see the Universe is just pretending.
What we can see is distant stars, and what we see with distant stars is a redshift. We also see time dilation in heavily redshifted type Ia supernovae which can only be explained by a difference in velocity between us and the type Ia supernovae caused by expansion.
Everything is moving away from us. The universe is expanding.
As for the Central-Vac and the snowball, I'm just trying to show that any 'Accelerating Expansion' is inward.
That is nonsense. Expansion is outward, by definition. When you expand a balloon do you let air out of it so that it shrinks? If you say that your waist line is expanding are you saying that your waist size is getting smaller?
I think matter is moving away from other matter, tho' you may disagree.
That is exactly what is happening which is what we would expect to see in an expanding universe.
Blue shifting does not apply. Air moving towards a Central Vac (CV) will lose pressure (I'm sure you can see that) and that's expansion (Red shift).
Red shift is not caused by a loss of pressure. Red shift is due to a difference in velocity.
A central vac is not analogous to our universe.
I hope that answers your doubts.
It doesn't answer them at all. You have yet to explain the most basic observations:
1. Why are galaxies redshifted, and does the redshift increase with distance?
2. What produced the CMB?
3. Why are distant type Ia supernovae going through time dilation?
Your vacuum analogy doesn't answer any of this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-29-2013 5:26 PM Peter Lamont has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Peter Lamont, posted 06-02-2013 3:34 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 102 of 305 (700149)
05-30-2013 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Peter Lamont
05-29-2013 6:44 PM


Re: Context
I repeat, there was no Big Bang. Such a thing is unthinkable.
It would appear that thousands of astrophysicists do think about it, and think about it quite well. You claims are nothing more than denial at this point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-29-2013 6:44 PM Peter Lamont has replied

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 103 of 305 (700153)
05-30-2013 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Peter Lamont
05-29-2013 4:48 PM


Our Universe is a vortex, like the Milky Way - but if it passes thru' a particularly dense part of space, it could grow. That's why I don't like to say it's contracting.
If that were so then we would not see a consistent increase in redshift with distance. The galaxies on the same side of the vortex as us and the same distance from the center of rotation would be moving the same speed and would not be redshifted. Galaxies on the same side as us but behind us in the rotation would be catching up to us and blueshifted. We would see a whole array of redshifted and blueshifted galaxies with really no relation to distance. That is not what we see.
Instead, we see a dead on correlation between redshift and distance, exactly what we should see in a galaxy without a vortex and even expansion everywhere. The evidence supports and expanding universe, and falsifies your vortex ideas.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-29-2013 4:48 PM Peter Lamont has replied

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Peter Lamont
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 147
Joined: 09-11-2012


Message 104 of 305 (700161)
05-30-2013 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Taq
05-29-2013 10:03 AM


Taq, falling into a black hole is a lot like going into a vacuum cleaner, in that the air is at its most expanded as it enterts the nozzle, and also at it's highest speed.
If we were falling into a black hole we also would be in our most expanded state and at our highest speed.
I think you would see a red shift with all that expansion going on.
As for the vortex, in any vortex you would accelerate, and that would cause you to lose pressure and expand. Any expansion is red-shift.
Let me know if you have any trouble with this. I know, with everything converging on the nozzle, you would expect a high pressure, but this is not what happens - instead you have a vacuum at the nozzle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Taq, posted 05-29-2013 10:03 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Taq, posted 05-30-2013 5:53 PM Peter Lamont has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 105 of 305 (700164)
05-30-2013 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Peter Lamont
05-30-2013 5:49 PM


Taq, falling into a black hole is a lot like going into a vacuum cleaner,
If we were falling into a black hole then the stars opposite of the black hole would be blue shifted. They aren't. Galaxies are moving away from us, not towards us or a towards a central portion of the universe.
The evidence contradicts your claims.
As for the vortex, in any vortex you would accelerate, and that would cause you to lose pressure and expand.
Our universe is not expanding due to a loss in air pressure. That is the most ludicrous thing I have ever read.
Let me know if you have any trouble with this. I know, with everything converging on the nozzle, you would expect a high pressure, but this is not what happens - instead you have a vacuum at the nozzle.
If galaxies are converging on the nozzle then they would be blue shifted. They aren't. They are the exact opposite. They are red shifted.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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