Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is It Bigoted To Have A Supported Opinion?
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 166 of 175 (699599)
05-22-2013 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by GDR
05-21-2013 6:26 PM


Re: Communion
Did you bother to read more than just one since line without context?
DWise1 writes:
Now, when we address the question of the authenticity of the authorship of the books of the Bible, let us first chase the obvious rabbit. The books of the Bible were written by Man, questions of divine inspiration aside (we'll get to that below).
Do you disagree with that? Again, please be specific if you do. And, again, at this point we are not yet talking about the effects of divine inspiration or intervention; that will come later so save that kind of objection until later.
Immediately, we encounter the problem of the pseudepigrapha, works that are falsely attributed to someone else. This was a common practice in ancient times and even after. It was further confused by the library systems of the time (as James Burke has described it) in which a document's labeling could indicate the author, or that it had to do with that person, or almost anything. The many Gospels were attributed to apostles and other followers of Jesus, but that doesn't mean that they were actually written by those persons.
This is a factor that confuses matters here, but how important is the authenticity of human authorship when it comes to the Bible? With the epistles it would matter more, but when it really comes down to brass tacks, does authentic authorship really matter? The validity of the books of the New Testament was decided by a human committee to be canon. And even if that weren't the case, the question of the actual human authors of the books of the Bible isn't really that important. Well, at least not to most. I imagine that there could be some Christians who make specific authentic human authorship an article of faith, but that's their own problem.
Rather, what is important to many Christians and especially to fundamentalist/evangelical/conservative/etc Christians, is the Divine Authorship of the Bible. I do know that over the decades I've encountered and heard countless fundamentalists making the uncompromising either-or proclamation that either the Bible is the inerrant Word of God or it's complete rubbish and they made it completely clear that their complete faith depended on the outcome of that "dilemma". This Divine Authorship can be believed and understood over a spectrum depending on individual and congregational/denominational interpretations of what that's supposed to mean, but it does appear to be part of most Christian denominations' doctrine -- I would be hard-pressed to come up with any contrary examples, except perhaps Unitarian-Universalist Christians (yes, we were also surprised to learn that they exist). You appear to lean in the direction of that fundamentalist stance, whether from near or from afar, while I lean away in the direction of that stance being based on a false dilemma, but that is another discussion.
So I'm not talking about questions of which specific humans wrote those books of the Bible. In fact, I specifically say that it does not matter! So what's your point?
The issue is that many believers value the Bible and its contents solely because of its purported Divine Authorship. I believe that is wrong, that the content itself needs to be examined and evaluated on its own merits, but that's not what believers in Divine Authorship do. They believe that the contents of the Bible are all correct and perfect because they believe that God Himself wrote the Bible, whether directly or indirectly. And that is certainly how Phat has been presenting himself in this matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by GDR, posted 05-21-2013 6:26 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by GDR, posted 05-22-2013 2:23 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 167 of 175 (699600)
05-22-2013 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by jar
05-21-2013 7:29 PM


Re: Communion
While actual authorship might be relevant in some legal instances it is totally irrelevant in considering the value of the content of a document, story, Bible, scientific review or study.
Which has been my position all along. Instead of shotgunning us with Bible quotes, he needs to present a reasoned argument. He uses those Bible quotes not because he has validated them, not because he has evaluated them, but rather just because he believes that God wrote them!
As I describe, if you have bothered to read what I had written, it is the position of the believer in the Divine Authorship of the Bible that the Bible's authority and validity and truth is derived solely from its Author, God Himself. As countless fundamentalists will witness unto us to death, if God wrote the Bible then it is inerrant and everything in it is true, but if God didn't write the Bible then it is completely false and worthless and should be tossed into the trash.
It is the position of the Bible believers that I am describing, not my own!
Yes, I do in fact believe that the Bible's contents need to be examined and evaluated, but that is something that Bible believers will not stand for. To a Bible believer, if we find even one single error in the Bible, then the entire Bible is false and God either does not exist or is a liar whom you should not worship, so you must therefore become an atheist. That is what countless fundamentalists have witnessed to me and they were extremely adamant about it. I believe that position of theirs is completely wrong and self-destructive, but they will fight very viciously to maintain that position.
So maybe if you were to read what I wrote, you would understand. Follow the development of the argument; don't pull parts of it out of context like GDR did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by jar, posted 05-21-2013 7:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by GDR, posted 05-22-2013 2:36 AM dwise1 has not replied
 Message 171 by jar, posted 05-22-2013 8:39 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 168 of 175 (699601)
05-22-2013 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by dwise1
05-22-2013 12:57 AM


Re: Communion
dwise1 writes:
So I'm not talking about questions of which specific humans wrote those books of the Bible. In fact, I specifically say that it does not matter! So what's your point?
The issue is that many believers value the Bible and its contents solely because of its purported Divine Authorship. I believe that is wrong, that the content itself needs to be examined and evaluated on its own merits, but that's not what believers in Divine Authorship do. They believe that the contents of the Bible are all correct and perfect because they believe that God Himself wrote the Bible, whether directly or indirectly. And that is certainly how Phat has been presenting himself in this matter.
You're right and I apologise. I gathered from jar's post that you felt that the Gospels lacked validity on the basis of authorship. Obviously that isn't what you were saying.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by dwise1, posted 05-22-2013 12:57 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 169 of 175 (699602)
05-22-2013 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by dwise1
05-22-2013 1:12 AM


Re: Communion
Dwise1 writes:
Yes, I do in fact believe that the Bible's contents need to be examined and evaluated, but that is something that Bible believers will not stand for. To a Bible believer, if we find even one single error in the Bible, then the entire Bible is false and God either does not exist or is a liar whom you should not worship, so you must therefore become an atheist. That is what countless fundamentalists have witnessed to me and they were extremely adamant about it. I believe that position of theirs is completely wrong and self-destructive, but they will fight very viciously to maintain that position.
I'll try reading what you have to say before replying this time.
Actually I couldn't agree more. My Christian faith is the most fundamental aspect of my life and yet if I felt it was necessary to understand the Bible as being the inerrant word of God I would have to leave the faith.
First off, you only have to read the Bible with all of its contradictions, errors and for that matter the personal anecdotes of the authors to understand that it is not God dictated. Worse than that however it paints a picture of a sometimes loving god, a sometimes vengeful god, a sometimes hateful god, a sometimes cruel god etc. It paints a picture of a god that is of no discernible nature meaning that you can understand him in any image that suits you.
If however we consider the Bible as being written by men inspired to write their personal understandings and accounts, recognizing that their individual and cultural biases will show up in what they write, we actually can then come up with a coherent narrative and within that narrative a relatively clear understanding of God.
Christianity started out being Christ centred and now in many instances, particularly on this continent it has become so Bible centric that Jesus is virtually left out.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by dwise1, posted 05-22-2013 1:12 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Phat, posted 05-22-2013 7:39 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 173 by ramoss, posted 05-22-2013 4:06 PM GDR has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 170 of 175 (699603)
05-22-2013 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by GDR
05-22-2013 2:36 AM


Re: Communion
Christianity started out being Christ centred and now in many instances, particularly on this continent it has become so Bible centric that Jesus is virtually left out.
Christianity should always be Christ centered. Jesus is alive today. This is the message that is important. My basic critique of the argument centers on those who look at Jesus as either fictitious or as a mere human historical character. I maintain that human wisdom-centered arguments will fail to explain the meaning of scripture almost every time. In which case the crux of defending ones position rests entirely on human logic, reason, and reality. Of course I suppose that Theodoric and others have a point when they challenge me to do so....after all, if I believe that Jesus is alive, perhaps He can help me defend my position!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by GDR, posted 05-22-2013 2:36 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by ramoss, posted 05-22-2013 4:07 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 171 of 175 (699608)
05-22-2013 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by dwise1
05-22-2013 1:12 AM


still just posting your fantasies
And you are still taking an infantile and incorrect position.
Which has been my position all along. Instead of shotgunning us with Bible quotes, he needs to present a reasoned argument. He uses those Bible quotes not because he has validated them, not because he has evaluated them, but rather just because he believes that God wrote them!
Have you asked Phat if he believes God wrote those passages?
As I describe, if you have bothered to read what I had written, it is the position of the believer in the Divine Authorship of the Bible that the Bible's authority and validity and truth is derived solely from its Author, God Himself. As countless fundamentalists will witness unto us to death, if God wrote the Bible then it is inerrant and everything in it is true, but if God didn't write the Bible then it is completely false and worthless and should be tossed into the trash.
Yup, there are fundamentalists and literalists, but have you asked Phat if he is one of those?
Not all Bible believers think God wrote the Bible.
It is the position of the Bible believers that I am describing, not my own!
No, it is YOUR caricature of Bible believers that you are describing.
Sorry but you are still simply posting your own position of what a Bible believer is and believes.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by dwise1, posted 05-22-2013 1:12 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Phat, posted 05-22-2013 9:35 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 172 of 175 (699610)
05-22-2013 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by jar
05-22-2013 8:39 AM


Re: still just posting your fantasies
jar writes:
Not all Bible believers think God wrote the Bible.
I believe that the Bible is inspired by the Spirit of God. Humans obviously wrote it...it didn't fall out of the sky and land at the feet of King James. As you have pointed out, there is not one book known as the Bible initially...it came about through compilation of letters, scrolls, and human writings which I believe were inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Quite obviously these writings also reflected the culture and world view of the individual author(s).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by jar, posted 05-22-2013 8:39 AM jar has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 173 of 175 (699650)
05-22-2013 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by GDR
05-22-2013 2:36 AM


Re: Communion
First off, you only have to read the Bible with all of its contradictions, errors and for that matter the personal anecdotes of the authors to understand that it is not God dictated. Worse than that however it paints a picture of a sometimes loving god, a sometimes vengeful god, a sometimes hateful god, a sometimes cruel god etc. It paints a picture of a god that is of no discernible nature meaning that you can understand him in any image that suits you.
One of the common Jewish attitudes to the scriptures is that is the a document showing man's search for God, with all of man's warts and all exposed.
I think you will see one reoccurring theme in the Jewish scriptures is that there were a lot of great men who were rulers that had a lot of great flaws too.. but, according to the Bible, were accepted by god, despite their great flaws.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by GDR, posted 05-22-2013 2:36 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by GDR, posted 05-22-2013 4:33 PM ramoss has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


(1)
Message 174 of 175 (699651)
05-22-2013 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Phat
05-22-2013 7:39 AM


Re: Communion
Jesus is alive today?? Do you have his address and phone number?? Does he personally do speaking engagements??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Phat, posted 05-22-2013 7:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 175 of 175 (699654)
05-22-2013 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by ramoss
05-22-2013 4:06 PM


Re: Communion
ramoss writes:
One of the common Jewish attitudes to the scriptures is that is the a document showing man's search for God, with all of man's warts and all exposed.
I'd agree with that.
ramoss writes:
I think you will see one reoccurring theme in the Jewish scriptures is that there were a lot of great men who were rulers that had a lot of great flaws too.. but, according to the Bible, were accepted by god, despite their great flaws.
As something far less than a great man but still with great flaws I also believe that I am accepted by God.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by ramoss, posted 05-22-2013 4:06 PM ramoss has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024