|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Wealth Distribution in the USA | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4061 Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
So you believe people should be paid according to their needs rather than the value of their work. I believe that there is a minimum amount of income that a person can actually survive on. I believe that no person deserves to be homeless, or to starve, or to lack medical care, due to lack of money. What if I valued your work at $2/hr? What would happen to you? What if that was the best job you could find? Do you really think that I'm advocating communism? Are you seriously going to oversimplify my statements and economics in general to the point that we either accept pure market-guided salaries with no controls at all or else full-blown communism?The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4061 Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
You must have missed my point, maybe you took the reference to slavery too literally, let me try again. Did he accept the job of his own free will, probably because it was an improvement on his previous job? And can he leave it of his own free will? If I hold a gun to your head and command you to work, are you exercising "free will" by working? If I hold your paycheck and you will starve to death without it and command you to work, are you exercising "free will" by working? An employee may have some limited ability to choose who to work for, but work is not exactly an option Percy. You know that.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22936 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 6.8
|
Rahvin writes: Is that about right? Not even close. But you were pretty clear about believing that people should be paid according to their needs rather than the value of their work. --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4061 Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
Maybe you should try reading again, Percy.
The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Really? What was he doing before the employer built a factory in his country? Did the employer build the factory only by destroying the job he used to have? Percy, all you are doing in your arguments here is rejecting labor theories of value in favor of pure capitalist systems of valuing labor. Why is your theory of value more accurate? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22936 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
Rahvin writes: Do you really think that I'm advocating communism? Well, since you bring it up, yes, you're advocating the half of communist idealism that advocates paying people according to their needs.
Are you seriously going to oversimplify my statements and economics in general to the point that we either accept pure market-guided salaries with no controls at all or else full-blown communism? Again, not even close. --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22936 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
I agree that you should do that.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22936 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
Percy, all you are doing in your arguments here is rejecting labor theories of value in favor of pure capitalist systems of valuing labor. Why is your theory of value more accurate? I don't agree with the label you're assigning me, but my theory is more accurate because my math works and yours doesn't. Value is determined by markets, not by politicians or bureaucrats. Of course the regulatory environment is part of the competitive landscape, but if, for example, the minimum wage rises to $20/hour, people working at jobs worth substantially less than that will no longer have jobs because employers will no longer offer those jobs. That's because value is determined by markets. --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 90 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The question is whether that is how value should be determined?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
|
Value is determined by markets, not by politicians or bureaucrats. That's true. The market determines that the value of a pair of sneakers is maybe a couple hundred dollars. The value of the raw materials only a few dollars. It is certainly the case that the assembler's wage is determined by the local market for his labor. But the laborer's wage is a poor proxy for the value the laborer has added to the materials.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Modulous Member (Idle past 235 days) Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Is this person a slave? Yes, more or less. My final paragraphs explain my comment in more detail.
What was he doing before the employer built a factory in his country? He was likely working elsewhere for a while, and maybe spent some time unemployed. Who knows, he's hypothetical.
Did the employer build the factory only by destroying the job he used to have? No, but businesses do sometimes expand into a marketplace and in the process, cause other businesses to lose market share and thus have to scale back and lose employees. Sometimes there is net growth, sometimes not. Unemployment rates have moved around, but its not a steady decline alongside rising GDP. None of which really speaks to the nature of the concept of wage slavery
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22936 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
NoNukes writes: But the laborer's wage is a poor proxy for the value the laborer has added to the materials. If that had even an iota of a smattering of truth than diamond cutting would be one of the most lucrative occupations in the world. But the value of a diamond cutter's work (leaving aside the inevitable differences in skill) is set by the supply/demand curve for diamond cutters, not by the amount the diamond increases in value when they're done. --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
If that had even an iota of a smattering of truth than diamond cutting would be one of the most lucrative occupations in the world. Are you suggesting that a diamond cutter does not add value that exceeds his wages? What I am suggesting here is the idea that only capitalists create wealth and that no laborer does is complete crap. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22936 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
Modulous writes: Is this person a slave?
Yes, more or less. My final paragraphs explain my comment in more detail. Your final paragraphs rebut an argument I wasn't making.
What was he doing before the employer built a factory in his country? He was likely working elsewhere for a while, and maybe spent some time unemployed. Who knows, he's hypothetical. If he has sufficient reality for someone to base an argument on him receiving $2-3 an hour, then he has sufficient reality for me to point out that if one removes the employer then he's worse off. It doesn't take any great sense of compassion to judge that it isn't fair when wages are too little, and I'm with everybody on this. It isn't fair that we were born in wealthy countries instead of Bangladesh or Burma. Even in our own countries, it isn't fair that some of us were born to families who could afford to send us to college and some weren't. It isn't even fair that some of us are born with inherent qualities that enable us to earn far more than others. But it is a leap of not only illogic and irrationality but even worse of really, really bad math to believe that fairness demands that a job's worth be at least equal to a person's needs. Government can play a significant and important role in remedying the inherent unfairness of the world through laws and regulations and treaties and tariffs and so forth, and I think some European countries do a very good job of this. But that doesn't change the fact that markets (which are always strongly influenced by regulatory environments) set values. Compassion doesn't demand that we forget our math skills. --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22936 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
NoNukes writes: If that had even an iota of a smattering of truth than diamond cutting would be one of the most lucrative occupations in the world.
Are you suggesting that a diamond cutter does not add value that exceeds his wages? No, no, of course not. I thought your statement that, "...the laborer's wage is a poor proxy for the value the laborer has added to the materials," included an implicit, "But they should be equal."
What I am suggesting here is the idea that only capitalists create wealth and that no laborer does is complete crap. I don't think anyone is suggesting this. Workers contribute value equal to their wages. --Percy
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024