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Author Topic:   A Better Theory: In Defense of Food by Michael Pollan
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 61 of 78 (698776)
05-09-2013 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Percy
05-08-2013 1:11 PM


Re: The right calories
We absolutely agree about the role of fiber. But, sticking with the apple example, I think fructose and glucose in the original apple matrix play out in the human body much differently than just the same amounts of fructose, glucose and fiber taken by teaspoon.
I wasn't able to find any reliable information on the relative absorption rates of an apple vs. soda pop (aka HCFS). If someone is able to find this info I think it would be very interesting to take a look at.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 62 of 78 (698794)
05-09-2013 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Taq
05-09-2013 1:16 PM


Re: The right calories
Taq writes:
I wasn't able to find any reliable information on the relative absorption rates of an apple vs. soda pop (aka HCFS).
For glucose you need look no further than the glycemic index, 38 for an apple, 100 (the maximum) for glucose. For fructose, I couldn't find anything definitive, either, except that the supply of GLUT5 (essential for metabolizing fructose) in the gut is limited and constrains the amount of fructose that can be absorbed quickly.
Anything intimately intertwined with fiber will be absorbed more slowly than when in liquid form.
--Percy

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 63 of 78 (698817)
05-09-2013 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Taq
05-09-2013 1:16 PM


Re: The right calories
I wasn't able to find any reliable information on the relative absorption rates of an apple vs. soda pop (aka HCFS).
Fiber slows down the rate the body absorbes nutrients and chemicals - also foods high in protein and good fats slow down the rate that glucose is absorbed.
I guess you can start by looking up how fiber slows down the rate of absotion of nutrients.
- Oni

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Replies to this message:
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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1025 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 64 of 78 (698846)
05-10-2013 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by ringo
05-08-2013 12:27 PM


Re: The right calories
If we were to eat like, say, Cro-Magnon man (assuming that our digestive systems haven't evolved much since then) we might be "healthy" in a parts-oriented sense but we'd have trouble getting enough fuel.
The source of the problem is agriculture. Without it, we'd be healthy but dead.
I've always been a bit dubious about the palaeolithic approach to diet. I do not have the digestive system of a palaeolithic hunter-gatherer. I am the descendant of several hundred generations of the people who were best able to thrive in an agricultural setting on the foods available there. I consume large quantites of milk of cheese without becoming ill - something our palaeolithic ancestors had difficulty doing.
Now, I've heard evidence that this dairy consumption may be having long-term detrimental effects of my health, and I may be better off without it. Nevertheless, the fact that I am a facultative lactophage suggests to me that there are different things happening in my stomach that happened in the stomach of my ancestors 15,000 years ago, and it's not at all clear to me that I'd manage better eating like them.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 78 (698866)
05-10-2013 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by onifre
05-09-2013 6:49 PM


Fiber slows down the rate the body absorbes nutrients and chemicals
Is that why it makes you poop so much? 'Cause you ain't absorbing shit?

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 66 of 78 (698869)
05-10-2013 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by New Cat's Eye
05-10-2013 10:08 AM


Is that why it makes you poop so much? 'Cause you ain't absorbing shit?
Haha!
Not all fiber helps the poop shoot. You want foods high in insoluble fiber like bran, beans, some fruits (apples and pears), and some veggies.
Soluble fiber helps with cholesterol and that. Foods like beans, whole wheat, fruits, veggies, nuts.
Some foods are high in both, and those are the best ones: Broccoli, carrots, apples, rye bread, peas, oatmeal, plums - to name a few. Eat two or three of those per-day and you're body will be shitting gloriously and fighting cancer at the same time.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 78 (698872)
05-10-2013 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by onifre
05-10-2013 10:31 AM


Soluble fiber helps with cholesterol and that.
So, my dad's dad died of a heart attack when I was a child. Dad had a quadruple bypass in his 50's. Growing up he was a steak and potatoes (with lots of butter) kind of guy. His cholesterol levels were through the roof, it blocked his arteries, thus the bypasses. He's now on a low cholesterol diet (oh, and a statin), which included adding HDL's and other things to help his body lower the LDL's. We have the same doctor, and he's put me on a low cholesterol diet as well. Might as well start now, since there's also a genetic component, and then hopefully I won't have to go through the same thing. I really like grains and fruits, almonds (especially the wasabi and soy sauce ones!), salmon, beans and all that stuff. I quit eggs, shrimp, and cheese. I don't drink soda (unless there's liquor in it).\
There's a farmer's market, like, 150 yards down the street from my house, so we just get our vegetables from there. I usually have chicken or pork for protein. On a special occasion, I'll grill up a porterhouse.
Diet alone has lowered my total cholesterol level, and the good foods have bettered my HDL/LDL balance. So far so good. My biggest problem now is a lack of exercise.
Eat two or three of those per-day and you're body will be shitting gloriously and fighting cancer at the same time.
So I stayed at my parents house over the holidays and had some of my dad's on-diet high fiber cereal one morning. Let me telling, the shitting was not glorious. Dear Lord!
I suppose your body gets used to the intake, but that initial plunge was something else.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 68 of 78 (698882)
05-10-2013 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by onifre
05-09-2013 6:49 PM


Re: The right calories
Fiber slows down the rate the body absorbes nutrients and chemicals - also foods high in protein and good fats slow down the rate that glucose is absorbed.
I was hoping to find actual charts that measured the release of fructose into the bloodstream over time. These may be hard to find, but if anyone runs across them or has time to hunt them down I think it would certainly be interesting.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 69 of 78 (698892)
05-10-2013 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by caffeine
05-10-2013 4:59 AM


Re: The right calories
caffeine writes:
I do not have the digestive system of a palaeolithic hunter-gatherer.
You quoted me as saying I assume you do. Do we actually know that paleolithic hunter-gatherers were lactose-intolerant? As I understand it, the individual body loses the ability to digest lactose if it doesn't use that ability. Is there reason to think that the intolerance is inherited/evolved?
My point about agriculture is that many agricultural products, especially grains, require processing - i.e. pre-digesting - before we can eat them in any quantity. That interference with the natural digestive process is the cause of a lot of our nutritional problems.
We invented agriculture to make available more food (fuel) of kinds that are not easily digestible. To make them digestible, we have to process many of the nutrients out of them. I maintain that we'd be better off eating roots, berries and grubs - but there wouldn't be very many of us.
Edited by ringo, : Changed "belief" to "think" - more sound both gramatically and doctrinally.

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 Message 64 by caffeine, posted 05-10-2013 4:59 AM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by caffeine, posted 05-13-2013 5:03 AM ringo has replied
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 70 of 78 (698917)
05-10-2013 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by New Cat's Eye
05-10-2013 10:52 AM


There's a farmer's market, like, 150 yards down the street from my house, so we just get our vegetables from there. I usually have chicken or pork for protein. On a special occasion, I'll grill up a porterhouse.
Yeah cholesterol is a killer. But from what I've read - look up bulletproofexecutive.com - if you switch to grass fed beef it's actually better for you than regular store bought pork or chicken. It has all the good fats and none of the bad, plus it's free of any chemicals and/or hormones. It's good for your cholesterol.
I have gress fed beef 3 times a week,, the rest is fish (try wild as much as possible) and a little pork. If I'm going with bird, other than wild game, I go with turrkey with higher protein and less fat. My cholesterol has been perfect for the last 2 years.
Lately though I've been getting into wild game a bit more. I'd like to hunt more often, but for now I order online. It's pretty cheap. I'd like to make that change of only eating food food like Percy is suggesting.
My biggest problem now is a lack of exercise.
Yeah that's my biggest problem too. Although I walk maybe 5 miles a day just getting around in NY, I also have kettle bells at home. We can all stand to be more active.
I suppose your body gets used to the intake, but that initial plunge was something else.
Yeah, when you first start a high fiber diet it's an issue! Gas and powerful shits. But your body will get used to it.
I start the day with an apple and a banana, but by 10:30am I have a bowl of split pea or lentils - they are high in fiber. More so than any bran cereal I've seen and are not processed at all.
- Oni

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 78 (698925)
05-10-2013 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by onifre
05-10-2013 3:04 PM


I'm not at a good point in my life for a radical upheaval, but one of these days I'd like to clean out my fridge and pantry and just get rid of everything and start over. It'd be a lot easier for me to eat right (I don't mind the eating of the good stuffs) if it was more convenient for me. Well, I guess what I'd be doing is making it an inconvenience to get the bad stuffs and then fall back onto the good stuffs by default (cause that's what I'd have laying around).
I think that's really the only way for me to get her done. If I'm looking for a snack and there isn't a bag of chips sitting there that I can just eat right out of, but instead I have some fruit, nuts, or veggies as the only option, then that's what I'd be eating. I keep the good stuff on hand, but if my GF bring home a bag of Doritoes and I'm in the middle of a game, or something, well its just so much easier to get your teeth on the bad stuffs when both options are sitting there.
the rest is fish (try wild as much as possible)
St. Louis is too far from either coast to get good fish, as far as I'm aware, but I haven't serious looked hard.
plus it's free of any chemicals and/or hormones
Well, it has chemicals in it, but I know what you're sayin'.
I'm not really afraid of chemicals and hormones and GMO's and all that stuff.

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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1025 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 72 of 78 (699003)
05-13-2013 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by ringo
05-10-2013 12:15 PM


Re: The right calories
You quoted me as saying I assume you do. Do we actually know that paleolithic hunter-gatherers were lactose-intolerant? As I understand it, the individual body loses the ability to digest lactose if it doesn't use that ability. Is there reason to think that the intolerance is inherited/evolved?
My point about agriculture is that many agricultural products, especially grains, require processing - i.e. pre-digesting - before we can eat them in any quantity. That interference with the natural digestive process is the cause of a lot of our nutritional problems.
We invented agriculture to make available more food (fuel) of kinds that are not easily digestible. To make them digestible, we have to process many of the nutrients out of them. I maintain that we'd be better off eating roots, berries and grubs - but there wouldn't be very many of us.
Okay - sorry if I misunderstood.
As for lactose-tolerance, I'd always just assumed it was genetically based. Societies with milk and cheese had higher levels of lactose-tolerance because of past natural selection - but I suppose it's equally well explained if people who grow up with milk and cheese in their diet retain the ability to digest it.
A very cursory glance through Google suggests there is a genetic basis - see here from the American Journal of Human Genetics, for example. I don't know how well supported the idea is, though.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 73 of 78 (699007)
05-13-2013 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by ringo
05-10-2013 12:15 PM


Re: The right calories
quote:
My point about agriculture is that many agricultural products, especially grains, require processing - i.e. pre-digesting - before we can eat them in any quantity. That interference with the natural digestive process is the cause of a lot of our nutritional problems.
Maybe the problem today is that some companies aren't processing the food for maximum nutrition.
I love hominy, but it is getting harder to find in the stores. In researching ways to make hominy today, I found it interesting that some of the processes that various natives used to prepare grains for consumption aren't necessarily used today commercially. I'm still researching the issue, but various soaking and fermenting processes seemed to have been the norm in a variety of cultures.
Nixtamalization
The nixtamalization process was very important in the early Mesoamerican diet, as unprocessed maize is deficient in free niacin. A population depending on untreated maize as a staple food risks malnourishment, and is more likely to develop deficiency diseases such as pellagra. Maize also is deficient in essential amino acids, which can result in kwashiorkor. Maize cooked with lime provided niacin in this diet. Beans, when consumed with the maize, provided the amino acids required to balance the diet for protein.
Be Kind to Your Grains...And Your Grains Will Be Kind To You
But many healthy societies consume products made from grains. In fact, it can be argued that the cultivation of grains made civilization possible and opened the door for mankind to live long and comfortable lives. Problems occur when we are cruel to our grainswhen we fractionate them into bran, germ and naked starch; when we mill them at high temperatures; when we extrude them to make crunchy breakfast cereals; and when we consume them without careful preparation.
Grains require careful preparation because they contain a number of antinutrients that can cause serious health problems. Phytic acid, for example, is an organic acid in which phosphorus is bound. It is mostly found in the bran or outer hull of seeds. Untreated phytic acid can combine with calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and especially zinc in the intestinal tract and block their absorption. This is why a diet high in improperly prepared whole grains may lead to serious mineral deficiencies and bone loss. The modern misguided practice of consuming large amounts of unprocessed bran often improves colon transit time at first but may lead to irritable bowel syndrome and, in the long term, many other adverse effects.
We try to think of better way to do things and sometimes it isn't as beneficial.
History of Grains
During Roman civilization, flour milling technology rapidly developed, and soon the Romans were making four or five commercial grades of lour. The finest flour, almost a creamy color and not quite as white of that of our white bread today, was sold only to the upper classes. Interestingly, the wrestlers and athletes of that time were fed the coarser grade of flour to keep their limbs strong.
Refined Grains
Refined grains, in contrast to whole grains, refers to grain products consisting of grains or grain flours that have been significantly modified from their natural composition. The modification process generally involves the mechanical removal of bran and germ,[1] either through grinding or selective sifting.
I found a place that sells masa harina, which is basically hominy flour.
Using a Pizzelle maker to keep on the thin side, I make a pasty mixture of the masa harina, cream, water, and sea salt. This makes a nice simple and thin bread for sandwiches. We have also used them for small soft tacos.
I'm still looking into the soaking, fermenting, or germinating of other grains and how I can work those into our diet. I did find a method using baking soda for making hominy and a slow cooker. Haven't tried it yet.
My husband cringes when he comes home to a kitchen cluttered with food experiments. He just hopes there's an edible dinner in there somewhere.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 74 of 78 (699008)
05-13-2013 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by New Cat's Eye
05-10-2013 4:06 PM


Pantry Flush
quote:
I'm not at a good point in my life for a radical upheaval, but one of these days I'd like to clean out my fridge and pantry and just get rid of everything and start over. It'd be a lot easier for me to eat right (I don't mind the eating of the good stuffs) if it was more convenient for me. Well, I guess what I'd be doing is making it an inconvenience to get the bad stuffs and then fall back onto the good stuffs by default (cause that's what I'd have laying around).
We did that in 2003. We thought we would finish the unhealthy stuff first, but found it was easier to get rid of the contraband and start new.
When my daughter's rental house burned several years ago, she and grandson stayed with us til they could find a new place. Needless to say the contraband flowed into the house. There was a three pack of Twinkies on the counter for several days before I succumbed to the temptation. I told her the cats ate it. She didn't believe me. Now she knows why that excuse didn't work for her when she was little.
We have contraband every so often, but it isn't on a daily basis. Oddly, both sides of our family thought our switch was odd, but in the last few years they have been slowly climbing aboard.
Good Luck!

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 75 of 78 (699010)
05-13-2013 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by caffeine
05-13-2013 5:03 AM


Re: The right calories
caffeine writes:
As for lactose-tolerance, I'd always just assumed it was genetically based.
It's actually known as lactase persistence, and you're correct, it's genetic. The necessary gene variant is thought to have come under strong selective pressure in Europe around 5000-10000 years ago, roughly coincident with the domestication of cattle and the development of dairy farming.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Typos.

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