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Author Topic:   Belief in God is scientific.
Ossat
Member (Idle past 2501 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 95 of 262 (695265)
04-04-2013 8:48 AM


I personally think the observable world offers much more evidence of intelligent design than of chance. I would need more faith to believe in the theory of evolution than in the idea that there is a God

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2013 9:34 AM Ossat has replied
 Message 104 by Taq, posted 04-04-2013 12:20 PM Ossat has replied
 Message 106 by jar, posted 04-04-2013 1:20 PM Ossat has replied
 Message 107 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-04-2013 1:29 PM Ossat has replied

  
Ossat
Member (Idle past 2501 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 119 of 262 (695402)
04-05-2013 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by New Cat's Eye
04-04-2013 9:34 AM


What would "evidence of chance" look like?
Do you ever see scientists talking about "chance"? Why is it always creationists saying it? Could it be a misunderstanding?
lol - I just did a Google Scholar search for the word 'chance'... all I got was a bunch of papers written by people that were named Chance
I mean unplanned changes. Would it sound more like evolutionist language if I refer to it as "random mutations". Isn't that the way evolution is suppose to happen?
You know how babies are made. New animals come from existing animals. How do you get variety from that process?
Because just a small part of your genetic information (genotype) is expressed physically in your body (Phenotype). You look slightly different respective to your parents but still the genetic information is the same. I know there are mutations in the process and they contribute to the variation but that doesn't really mean there is "evolution" in process

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2013 9:34 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-05-2013 11:04 AM Ossat has replied

  
Ossat
Member (Idle past 2501 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 120 of 262 (695404)
04-05-2013 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Taq
04-04-2013 12:20 PM


But are you able to demonstrate that this is true using evidence?
Any living thing no matter how small and simple looks, is far too complex, has got far too much parts interacting together to be the result of unplanned events
Why would you need faith when there is evidence to look at?
29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent
Would you say you don't need any faith to accept the theory of evolution? you can read this website or any other, or any book. That alone is not evidence at all, you are just believing in what other people is writing, you are basically having faith in them

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Taq, posted 04-04-2013 12:20 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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Ossat
Member (Idle past 2501 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


(1)
Message 121 of 262 (695406)
04-05-2013 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by jar
04-04-2013 1:20 PM


Re: faith is not needed
Not really. That's just a silly statement.
What is needed for you to understand and accept the Theory of Evolution as well as the Fact that Evolution happened is not faith but education, experience, critical thinking skills and honesty.
I happened to have secular education and be feed evolutionist doctrine. I have the experience of living and observing the world around me, I have critical thinking to see that things just don't make sense from an evolutions perspective, I keep improving my skills and opening mi mind to understand God's works. And I am honest to recognize that God did it all, no matter if you think I am silly, uneducated, unexperienced, uncritical, unskilled and dishonest
The fact that the Theory of Evolution is the only model so far that explains the fact of Evolution is also unrelated to the belief in God. Many of us, as devout Christians, understand both the fact that Evolution happened and how the Theory of Evolution explains what we see, yet we still believe in God and have Faith in God.
You are just assuming that evolution is a fact, but nevertheless. So you are a Devout Christian, but you cherrypick and decide what to believe from the Bible and what not. If you can't believe when God tells you how He made everything, how can you believe the texts about Jesus, and why did he even bothered dieing in the cross if Adam and Eve never even existed to sin and curse God's creation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 04-04-2013 1:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 04-05-2013 10:44 AM Ossat has replied
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Ossat
Member (Idle past 2501 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 122 of 262 (695407)
04-05-2013 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Dr Adequate
04-04-2013 1:29 PM


No, you'd need more knowledge than you presently have.
I have more knowledge than I had before. That's why I couldn't accept evolution anymore. The more I learn the weaker that theory looks. All you need to do is realize that evolution and science are not the same thing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-04-2013 1:29 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by dwise1, posted 04-05-2013 6:55 AM Ossat has replied
 Message 154 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-07-2013 2:17 PM Ossat has not replied

  
Ossat
Member (Idle past 2501 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 125 of 262 (695414)
04-05-2013 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Tangle
04-05-2013 6:31 AM


Reading the books and listening to experts is just a shortcut to knowledge. You can, if you wish visit the museums where the fossils are help, dig a few up yourself down on the bit of beach where I live, perform a few experiments breading pigeons and bacteria and even do your own genetic analysis of the animals that science says are our relatives.
What you read of a book and listen from an expert has necessarily to be right? Yeah the experimentation sounds more like science to me... could you give an example of what research have you done and what made you come to a conclusion that supports evolution?
You see, Evolutionary Theory is a science, not a belief; it's backed by huge quantities of evidence that anyone can see and test.
Evolutionary theory is not a science. It is a perspective from which you approach the natural phenomena that you want to study. To do science you need to reproduce by experiment your hypothesis. How can you reproduce the origin of life from non-life and changes in organisms leading to other species?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Tangle, posted 04-05-2013 6:31 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Pressie, posted 04-05-2013 9:07 AM Ossat has replied
 Message 131 by Tangle, posted 04-05-2013 9:25 AM Ossat has replied

  
Ossat
Member (Idle past 2501 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 126 of 262 (695416)
04-05-2013 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by dwise1
04-05-2013 6:55 AM


We all have more knowledge than we had before.
Yet some of us accept nonsense as further knowledge. Such as yourself, it would appear.
You would need to specify your "further knowledge" so that we may determine whether it is actual knowledge or merely nonsense.
For example I have learnt that for life to be possible you need DNA which contains the necessary information to make up a given living thing; RNA to transport the information and proteins to build the actual living thing. How can you possibly have all this much together without nobody making it happen? that is nonsense for me. How could the information in the DNA make itself? how could the chains of amino acids that form the proteins appear by accident and get it just right? you know the simple and weak explanation provided by evolutionary theory: "given enough time and opportunities anything is possible". I just don't buy it anymore
Edited by Ossat, : Missed a word that change my meaning

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 Message 124 by dwise1, posted 04-05-2013 6:55 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Coyote, posted 04-05-2013 8:50 AM Ossat has replied
 Message 128 by Pressie, posted 04-05-2013 8:59 AM Ossat has replied
 Message 130 by Percy, posted 04-05-2013 9:09 AM Ossat has replied
 Message 137 by 1.61803, posted 04-05-2013 10:57 AM Ossat has replied

  
Ossat
Member (Idle past 2501 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 132 of 262 (695437)
04-05-2013 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Coyote
04-05-2013 8:50 AM


Re: How could...
Thanks for the video,
While it is very interesting, it stills doesn't answer my questions. maybe I was not clear enough, but In my last post I was talking about origins of life. In the video the professor shows how random arrangements in the genetic pool can produce robust networks that show patterns like the black stripes in the fruit fly. That it fine, it doesn't either supports evolution or refuses creationism. As I have seen life, God created us all with the possibility of variations like the ones shown by the professor. But this doesn't involve that in a million years from now you will have different species as a result of this random production of functional networks. You will still have flies at best.
my question still stands, how this immense range of possibilities could've come from nothing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Coyote, posted 04-05-2013 8:50 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Ossat
Member (Idle past 2501 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 134 of 262 (695439)
04-05-2013 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Pressie
04-05-2013 8:59 AM


Re: Abiogenesis is not the theory of evolution
If you had any basic education at all you would know that abiogenesis deals with how life started and the theory of evolution deals with what happened to life after it started.Because of this above I don't think that you had any education at all. Therefore I don't buy it when you claim that you had an education.
Thanks for your correction but for the evolution theory to be true the abiogenesis needs to be true as well, because the first is based on the second. I wont't deal with the flaws of evolution at this point. I just wanted to point that not even origen of life is proven by science. abiogenesis is just an attempt to try to explain how life appeared, like panspermia, it's just hard core mental gymnastics to come up with explanations on how life could have appeared by itself

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Tangle, posted 04-05-2013 11:09 AM Ossat has replied
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Ossat
Member (Idle past 2501 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 136 of 262 (695442)
04-05-2013 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Pressie
04-05-2013 9:07 AM


Nope, it doesn't. Had any education?
You wanna believe I didn't have any education? Go on, believe it, I don't mind....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Pressie, posted 04-05-2013 9:07 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
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Ossat
Member (Idle past 2501 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 138 of 262 (695445)
04-05-2013 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Percy
04-05-2013 9:09 AM


Hi Ossat,
So let's consider as falsified (for the sake of discussion) the scientific explanations for the origin of life (that it was due to natural processes is about the only consensus right now) and for the diversity of species (evolution through a process of descent with modification and natural selection). How would this support the premise of this thread, that belief in God is scientific?
--Percy
Hi Percy,
I don't agree with the idea that something can be considered scientific just because the majority believes in it. But Intelligent design and creation can be accepted as scientific if we open our minds enough to recognize that the universe, the nature and life are far too complex to be an accident. It's for me evident that all of this must have been created, there is not other possibility. Let's say you are a forensic anthropologist examining with scientific rigor the place where somebody died. You have all the knowledge to be able to determine if the victim died of an accident or if someone killed him. Is the same with the universe, is clear for me that somebody did it. Regards

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Percy, posted 04-05-2013 9:09 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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Ossat
Member (Idle past 2501 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 149 of 262 (695548)
04-07-2013 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by 1.61803
04-05-2013 10:57 AM


Re: better living through chemistry
How does a Salt crystal "know" how to form a cube and get it just right?
...It's gotta be God!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by 1.61803, posted 04-05-2013 10:57 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Ossat
Member (Idle past 2501 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 198 of 262 (695761)
04-09-2013 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Tangle
04-05-2013 9:25 AM


If your doctor tells you that he's sent the lump he took out of your testicle to the lab and it's confirmed his earlier diagnosis of cancer, do you believe him or do you tell him he's making it up because he's read a book and listened to an expert?
Do you think that when the next satellite gets put into space, it'll be done from first principles or do you think the designer looked up the trajectory based on what they already know?
I suspect you reserve your scepticism for evolutionary science only don't you?
I may trust in what my doctor say, but couldn't say they will always be right, regardless how much they have studied they are still people and have biases and prejudices.
Of course experience helps in accuracy, not argument against this
But when it comes to evolutionary or any issue relating distant past I become very skeptic as many things (like origin of life) cannot be reproduced by experiment an so leave space for biased conclusions of the researcher according to his/her own mindsets. science may be very accurate, but is still practiced by subjective people
I was convinced by being taught it, just like I was happy to 'believe' Ohms Law. But I know that I can test both if I need too. So can you.
You are happy to 'believe' what you were taught. You are not the only one who believes things, everybody does, but many don't want to recognize that they consider something to be true as long as they believe in it, rather than have a real evidence to support their theories

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Tangle, posted 04-05-2013 9:25 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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Ossat
Member (Idle past 2501 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 199 of 262 (695769)
04-09-2013 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by jar
04-05-2013 10:44 AM


Re: faith is not needed
Evolution is a fact; that is a conclusion based on all of the evidence
That is a conclusion rather based on the biases of the evolutionists, that's all it is
Well, I've actually read the Bible and there is nothing in there to support Adam and Eve sinning or God cursing man such that Jesus would have to be sacrificed as a blood offering.
Romans 5: 12-15
{5:12} Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the
world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men,
for that all have sinned: {5:13} (For until the law sin was in
the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
{5:14} Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,
even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of
Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to
come. {5:15} But not as the offence, so also [is] the free
gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much
more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by
one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Jesus was born a man, therefore Jesus was going to die.
It really is that simple but that should be discussed in another thread.
But in the Bible the stories tell two different and mutually exclusive tales about how God created all living things anyway
So, nothing of God in Jesus, was just a human and only a human?
The second story in Genesis is not meant to be a sequence of events in the order they happened, like the first. There's not contradiction

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 04-05-2013 10:44 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Ossat
Member (Idle past 2501 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 246 of 262 (696108)
04-12-2013 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by New Cat's Eye
04-05-2013 11:04 AM


Okay, what would evidence of unplanned changes look like?
In my opinion, a change could be considered unplanned if it happen spontaneously (note that doesn't mean "instantly").
Would you agree?
I would agree in the extent that unplanned changes can cause variation between species, which doesn’t support evolution nor refutes the Bible
1. Re-roll all the dice that you have not set aside.
2. Set aside all rolled dice that have the number 6
3. If there are any dice that have not been set aside, go to step 1.
Okay, now imagine I've just handed you 100 dice and you're going to follow the steps. You roll them all, set the 6's aside, and keep rolling the rest. Eventually, all of the dice will be sitting there rolled as 6's.
Now I walk in and proclaim that because it was impossible for that to happen by chance (100 rolls of 6's), then you must have intentionally place all those dices with the 6 facing up.
Realize that all of the dice were rolled and randomly ended up on their 6's by chance. It was the selective process, not the random rolling, that produced the effect that looked like it was planned.
So no, evolution is not supposed to happen by random mutation, it is that plus the selective process that makes evolution happen. Because the fittest survive, in hindsight it can look like it was planned so that they would, but really those fitnesses did arise through random chance, its just that they were selected for.
Does each dice in that example represents an individual? Every time you roll the dice one generation goes? If so, how can you have natural selection without affecting the population? Wouldn’t does dices that aren’t number six, the less fit ones, perish in the process, leaving you with, say, 18 survivors (number sixes) after many times rolling the dices? Doesn’t natural selection takes its toll on the less fit?
Or do the 100 dices represent an individual and each time you roll the dices one generation goes? If so, let’s say you have in the beginning a non-winged individual, and after many times after you have roll the dices and many generations (thousands of years if you wish) have passed, when all the dices are number six, you have a winged individual which for some reason is fitter for a given environmental condition. How could in the beginning natural selection favor the individual that has got some dices with the number six (step two in your example) setting aside those dices with number six? Would natural selection, the mechanism to set aside the dices with number six, select an individual with a wing starting to appear? Wouldn’t that be a burden and a disadvantage compared to those individual that didn’t have any dice with number six?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-05-2013 11:04 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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