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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 652 (694492)
03-25-2013 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by GrimSqueaker
03-25-2013 6:08 AM


Hold on a second you r twisting words there - regarding the thought crimes response
I'm not twisting anything. As has been pointed out to you repeatedly nothing a Christian does can actually send you to Hell. Further no true Christian wants you to be punished. You are judging Christians, at least those who believe in punishment along those lines, based on their thoughts.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-25-2013 6:08 AM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 77 of 652 (694502)
03-25-2013 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by GrimSqueaker
03-25-2013 6:19 AM


End of the World
quote:
"I accept that the sun is going to become a red giant and will likely incinerate the entire inner solar system. Before that, the sun's aging will have erased all terrestrial life. I claim that those are the consequences for even those who worship Apollo and believe he will prevent such things. I don't accept that my belief in such a horrible thing is morally bankrupt."
And anyone who doesn't believe in such a horrible end to the planet should consider anyone who does to be morally bankrupt, correct? That's where your logic is going. Perspective.
Moral Bankruptcy
Moral bankruptcy is a synonym for immorality that has gained popular usage in the fields of business and politics, in which it specifically implies some instance of political corruption or corporate crime. It is a negatively connoted term referring to the deterioration or devaluation of morality in a person or entity, usually with the implication that the person or entity is aware of and responsible themselves for this deterioration. Moral bankruptcy, therefore, suggests that an individual has a sense of what is both morally good and bad (i.e. right and wrong), but consciously and deliberately chooses to make decisions in accord with the morally bad. Because of its negative connotation, the term tends in particular to mean both a selfish and consistent disregard for morality (where morality means a certain ethical domain, like propriety, justice, duty, the law, etc.). Moral bankruptcy may be distinguished from amorality, which is simply any absence of morality (e.g. some animals as an entire species may be considered amoral simply because they do not belong to cultures with moral codes). One who is exhibiting moral bankruptcy is said to be morally bankrupt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-25-2013 6:19 AM GrimSqueaker has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-25-2013 9:31 AM purpledawn has replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 78 of 652 (694518)
03-25-2013 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by purpledawn
03-25-2013 8:54 AM


Re: End of the World
I wasn't aware Moral Bankruptsy had a definition - cool, I love learning new stuff.
But I never said "A Christian" - ice explicted stated I was referring to the system Christanity and not Christians themselves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by purpledawn, posted 03-25-2013 8:54 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by purpledawn, posted 03-25-2013 9:46 AM GrimSqueaker has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 79 of 652 (694519)
03-25-2013 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by GrimSqueaker
03-25-2013 6:15 AM


The Above
If you haven't already, I suggest you read the Forum Guidelines.
As I said in Message 40, you haven't supported the idea that Christianity is morally bankrupt or that those who believe the doctrines you listed in Message 1 are morally bankrupt.
I addressed your list in Message 40, but your rebuttal didn't provide any additional support or evidence for your position and neither have the rest of your posts.
GrimSqueaker writes:
If I get u right what your saying is (well partially that some of my assumptions r wrong and maybe I can tackle that later but - )
[qoute] Don't blame Christians for what their God does [/qoute]
That's a bit silly. A God is a construct of the people within a certain belief system, even if a god was a real think the people who choose to worship him are responsible fpr their choice in worshipping it and condone it ie. If I worship a serpentheadedgod that demands blood sacrifice one can assume I condone blood sacrifice
BTW, you still haven't corrected the improper quote. It is not a quote from my post, please use the edit button and correct Message 39.
If you truly want to debate this topic, then counter my arguments with something other than God is a construct and guilt by association.
Moral Bankruptcy means that an individual knows what is both morally right and wrong, but deliberately chooses to make decisions and actions in accord with the wrong. They knowingly choose wrong.
One could probably make a case that telling children that Santa Claus is real or leading them to believe he is real is immoral. In this case parents know that the Santa of today is fictional, but lie to deceive their children anyway. Santa watching to see if the child is naughty or nice. There is No Santa Claus
That is an act of telling a falsehood because the parent knows it's fiction. Does this make all the parents and businesses morally bankrupt?
I've asked twice before, how many wrongs does it take to constitute moral bankruptcy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-25-2013 6:15 AM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 80 of 652 (694521)
03-25-2013 9:38 AM


I'll address these issue, not ignoring you dude just a little busy - and as I just mentioned I didn't realise that Moral Bankruptsy was a coined term, I meant something a bit different

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 81 of 652 (694522)
03-25-2013 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by GrimSqueaker
03-25-2013 9:31 AM


Re: End of the World
quote:
But I never said "A Christian" - ice explicted stated I was referring to the system Christanity and not Christians themselves
I didn't say a Christian either. My point concerned perspective.
Who do you think wrote the doctrines?????? Christians!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-25-2013 9:31 AM GrimSqueaker has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-25-2013 10:48 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 82 of 652 (694526)
03-25-2013 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by purpledawn
03-25-2013 9:46 AM


Re: End of the World
Do Christians not think God wrote them?
I still think the premises behind the doctrines are "evil" (for lack of a better word) even if they are impotent of supernatural power

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by purpledawn, posted 03-25-2013 9:46 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


(1)
Message 83 of 652 (694527)
03-25-2013 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by NoNukes
03-24-2013 6:30 PM


I accept that the sun is going to become a red giant and will likely incinerate the entire inner solar system. Before that, the sun's aging will have erased all terrestrial life. I claim that those are the consequences for even those who worship Apollo and believe he will prevent such things. I don't accept that my belief in such a horrible thing is morally bankrupt.
But you are not attributing any agency or intent to that action. It is hard to talk about morals but at the very least in our justice system, intent is something that we recognize is important. That is pretty much the only distinction between crimes such as manslaughter versus murder.
A volcano erupting and forcing an island of native people to flee is not morally wrong but forcibly evacuating a native people to test your nuclear weapons is. A volcano, the sun, do not have agency therefore your belief in their eventual catastrophic emanations doesn't say anything about its or your morality.
God on the other hand, commits genocide when he very certainly does not have to and does it with clear intent. Again with the caveat that morality is a loose thing to begin with, I think that sympathizing with the idea of a God who would intentionally murder an entire society simply to clear off a piece of land is immoral.
The main point is, that such a belief is inherently different from the belief that the sun will one day destroy the earth. It says nothing about what you are willing to believe other than that you accept rational predictions based on evidence.

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by NoNukes, posted 03-24-2013 6:30 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-25-2013 1:12 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 86 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2013 1:24 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 87 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2013 1:31 PM Jazzns has replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 84 of 652 (694546)
03-25-2013 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Jazzns
03-25-2013 10:57 AM


Thanks man - I thought I'd said that but u did it far more eloquently than I managed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Jazzns, posted 03-25-2013 10:57 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Jazzns, posted 03-25-2013 1:19 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 85 of 652 (694547)
03-25-2013 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by GrimSqueaker
03-25-2013 1:12 PM


Welcome
Yea, no problem.
I don't know if you are aware of the personal messaging system on the board. If not, consider yourself now aware and see if you can find it at the top of the page. You should have a message from me.
Welcome to EvC.

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-25-2013 1:12 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 652 (694548)
03-25-2013 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Jazzns
03-25-2013 10:57 AM


God on the other hand, commits genocide when he very certainly does not have to and does it with clear intent. Again with the caveat that morality is a loose thing to begin with, I think that sympathizing with the idea of a God who would intentionally murder an entire society simply to clear off a piece of land is immoral
I would have provided a different answer if GrimSqueaker had addressed his question to God's morality or even to the morality of worshipping such a being. But he did not do so. Instead he has talked about the Christian mindset, and and Christian's personal moral responsibility for God's judgment on someone who isn't a Christian. I am curious as to why he does this, but so far I haven't seen him pose the question you ask here.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Jazzns, posted 03-25-2013 10:57 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-25-2013 1:35 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 89 by Jazzns, posted 03-25-2013 6:52 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 652 (694549)
03-25-2013 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Jazzns
03-25-2013 10:57 AM


The main point is, that such a belief is inherently different from the belief that the sun will one day destroy the earth. It says nothing about what you are willing to believe other than that you accept rational predictions based on evidence.
Is it? I disagree.
I suspect that there are far more people that believe that the sun will become a red giant than there are who can actually defend that believe based on the evidence. Is that actually evil in some way?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Jazzns, posted 03-25-2013 10:57 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Jazzns, posted 03-25-2013 6:59 PM NoNukes has replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 88 of 652 (694550)
03-25-2013 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by NoNukes
03-25-2013 1:24 PM


I may have phrased it badly but;
"A God is a construct of the people within a certain belief system, even if a god was a real think the people who choose to worship him are responsible fpr their choice in worshipping it and condone it ie. If I worship a serpentheadedgod that demands blood sacrifice one can assume I condone blood sacrifice"
Ok I did it in a kinda hamfisted way but I did approach the topic that worshipping an immoral god condones it's actions

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2013 1:24 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Phat, posted 03-31-2013 3:30 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 89 of 652 (694568)
03-25-2013 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by NoNukes
03-25-2013 1:24 PM


I would have provided a different answer if GrimSqueaker had addressed his question to God's morality or even to the morality of worshipping such a being. But he did not do so. Instead he has talked about the Christian mindset, and and Christian's personal moral responsibility for God's judgment on someone who isn't a Christian. I am curious as to why he does this, but so far I haven't seen him pose the question you ask here.
Well, I don't think he is communicating very well on that point. At the same time, I think this debate has gotten bogged down on some technicalities.
I think the fundamental point is simply that it is the ideas expressed in a common reading of the Bible are immoral. This is very easy to see in the idea of God as expressed in the Old Testament such as in my example. I submit that it is also easy to see in the items in the OP if you are generous enough to overlook the way the issues were posed.
The idea of vicarious redemption is immoral. That is a very defendable position to hold. The fact that some Christians get by with a nuanced version of faith that doesn't contain vicarious redemption is irrelevent to the notion that many, perhaps even most, do.

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2013 1:24 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by NoNukes, posted 03-29-2013 9:02 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 90 of 652 (694569)
03-25-2013 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by NoNukes
03-25-2013 1:31 PM


I suspect that there are far more people that believe that the sun will become a red giant than there are who can actually defend that believe based on the evidence. Is that actually evil in some way?
This has nothing to do with my point about agency or intent. If someone had a random belief that the sun will turn into a red giant without ever having heard any evidence then my point actually still holds.
It is simply the counterpoint to a belief by faith that many people's understanding of the ultimate fate of the sun are in fact guided at least somewhat by the evidence even if it is filtered by an imperfect spread of science literacy. My point did not depend on that at all, it is simply strengthened by it.

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2013 1:31 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2013 8:58 PM Jazzns has replied

  
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