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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 61 of 652 (694374)
03-24-2013 11:02 AM


Ever ge the feeling you've bitten off more than you can chew?

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 62 of 652 (694389)
03-24-2013 2:06 PM


Ok - I've taken little time to think and hopefully I can clear up this topic slightly.
There is some dispute about terms, I keep referncing god and others are saying Christians - the topic is Christianity, Christianity is a system of belief and it is this system I am calling into question. I have no doubt that Christians can be good people, but to qoute Steven Weinberg

Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.
It is my hypothosis, one that I would like to debate, that Christianiy although it indeed has some tenants that are moral - but it's net worth of morality is in deficit, as it holds many beliefs and rules which are questionable at best, through immoral to perhaps down right evil.
I really hope this is a bit clearer now.......

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Huntard, posted 03-24-2013 3:50 PM GrimSqueaker has replied
 Message 64 by purpledawn, posted 03-24-2013 3:51 PM GrimSqueaker has replied
 Message 65 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-24-2013 3:57 PM GrimSqueaker has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 63 of 652 (694410)
03-24-2013 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by GrimSqueaker
03-24-2013 2:06 PM


The problem
I think the problem with saying "Christianity is X" is that there are so many different, let's say interpretations, of "Christianity", that it's going to be hard to pin any specific thing on it.
There'll always be someone who comes along and says: "I'm a Christian, and I believe no such thing!".
As such, an attempt to prove that "Christianity" is amoral is futile. The best one can hope to achieve is that some forms of Christianity are amoral.
For instance your list:
1 - Devine atonement for Sin is a moral loop hole.
There are Cristians who agree with this. Claiming that god will save according to your actions, not according to your prayers or beliefs.
2 - Heaven and Hell are Unjust.
There are Christians who claim there is no "hell", meaning a place of eternal torture / torment.
3 - Vicarious Redemption.
See my comments on your first point.
4 - Freedom of Choice.
Again, see comment on your first point.
5 - Original Sin and Sins of the Father.
There are Christians who don't believe in these things.
6 - Thought Crimes.
Again, some Christians will claim that thought crimes are not how their god works.
As you can see, the problem is not so much that there aren't any Christians that believe the specific things that you mentioned, the problem is that not all of them do so. Making a generalising statement like "Christianity is morally bankrupt" kinda hard to justify. In my oppinion it's better to say "some things some Christians believe are morally bankrupt". The problem with that however, is that even Christians among themselves will never agree on what those things are. Ask Faith what she considers morally bankrupt views held by Christians, and she'll cite the right to gay marriage (for example, if she even considers people holding those views to be Christian at all), ask Jar, and you'll get a completely different answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-24-2013 2:06 PM GrimSqueaker has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-24-2013 4:55 PM Huntard has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 64 of 652 (694411)
03-24-2013 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by GrimSqueaker
03-24-2013 2:06 PM


Clear As MudIt is my hypothosis, one that I would like to debate, that Christianiy al
quote:
It is my hypothosis, one that I would like to debate, that Christianiy although it indeed has some tenants that are moral - but it's net worth of morality is in deficit, as it holds many beliefs and rules which are questionable at best, through immoral to perhaps down right evil.
I really hope this is a bit clearer now.......
You keep coming up with premises and hypotheses, but you aren't presenting a logical argument that supports the position you keep tweaking.
Your hypothesis is still about the present. Make your case, stick to a position, and provide support.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-24-2013 2:06 PM GrimSqueaker has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-24-2013 4:58 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 65 of 652 (694413)
03-24-2013 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by GrimSqueaker
03-24-2013 2:06 PM


It is my hypothosis, one that I would like to debate, that Christianiy although it indeed has some tenants ...
You mean "tenets". Tenets are premises; tenants rent premises.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-24-2013 2:06 PM GrimSqueaker has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-24-2013 4:56 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 66 of 652 (694415)
03-24-2013 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by NoNukes
03-23-2013 10:39 PM


I find your worries about judgment to be completely incompatible with your claimed lack of belief.
He didn't say he was worried that it would happen, but that it's immoral to think that this is what should happen.
(After all, I can say that it would be painful if a flying pig fell on me without considering this to be at all a likely contingency.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by NoNukes, posted 03-23-2013 10:39 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by NoNukes, posted 03-24-2013 6:30 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 67 of 652 (694420)
03-24-2013 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Huntard
03-24-2013 3:50 PM


Re: The problem
Hmmmmm u make a very valid point
Can anyone suggest, in the spirit of developing a community member who wishes to contribute to intelligent discussion, a way to make any statement that would apply to Christanity as a group? Surely there must be something they all agree on (which I can subsequently attack lol)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Huntard, posted 03-24-2013 3:50 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Huntard, posted 03-24-2013 5:02 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 68 of 652 (694421)
03-24-2013 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Dr Adequate
03-24-2013 3:57 PM


I'm very dyslexic and autocorrect can only help so much I'm afraid

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-24-2013 3:57 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 69 of 652 (694422)
03-24-2013 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by purpledawn
03-24-2013 3:51 PM


Re: Clear As MudIt is my hypothosis, one that I would like to debate, that Christianiy al
I thought I had presented arguments, but perhaps I'm casting my net too wide - could u perhaps suggest a single point I may have mentioned that I could elaborate upon for you and we can discuss that before moving on to the next one

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by purpledawn, posted 03-24-2013 3:51 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 70 of 652 (694423)
03-24-2013 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by GrimSqueaker
03-24-2013 4:55 PM


Re: The problem
GrimSqueaker writes:
Hmmmmm u make a very valid point
Thank you.
Can anyone suggest, in the spirit of developing a community member who wishes to contribute to intelligent discussion, a way to make any statement that would apply to Christanity as a group? Surely there must be something they all agree on (which I can subsequently attack lol)
I can think of only one thing really. They all agree that a god exists (I'm not even sure they all agree that Jesus was his son). How to attack this however, is another matter entirely.
I suggest to stick to arguments like: "there are Christians who believe X and I think X is wrong for these reasons", it's the best one can do in any case, I think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-24-2013 4:55 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 71 of 652 (694430)
03-24-2013 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Dr Adequate
03-24-2013 4:02 PM


He didn't say he was worried that it would happen, but that it's immoral to think that this is what should happen.
So there are some immoral thoughts after all? Yet he believes he should not be judged for thought crimes.
I see your point, but I don't think it makes Christianity morally bankrupt.
I don't believe Christians are responsible for how the universe operates. But perhaps their fear of bad consequences explains a zeal for proselytizing that does not involve lining their own pockets.
I accept that the sun is going to become a red giant and will likely incinerate the entire inner solar system. Before that, the sun's aging will have erased all terrestrial life. I claim that those are the consequences for even those who worship Apollo and believe he will prevent such things. I don't accept that my belief in such a horrible thing is morally bankrupt.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-24-2013 4:02 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-25-2013 6:08 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 83 by Jazzns, posted 03-25-2013 10:57 AM NoNukes has replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 72 of 652 (694476)
03-25-2013 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by NoNukes
03-24-2013 6:30 PM


Hold on a second you r twisting words there - regarding the thought crimes response, I think the supposition and a system by which thoughts should be something that people should be punished for is immoral (even if the system is fabricated it's affects can be real)
Everyones mind is there own place and nothing should be beyond imagination and indeed vocalisation and discussion
Implicated punishment for thoughts is wrong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by NoNukes, posted 03-24-2013 6:30 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2013 8:30 AM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 73 of 652 (694478)
03-25-2013 6:15 AM


I've added a kicker to my original post- I'm gone repeat it here to save people clicking back or perhaps missing it entirely
"For the sake of clarity I'm gonna add the kicker that I am only currently finding issue with Christian doctorians which believe the above - it has been abundantly pointed out to me that not all Christians hold all of these beliefs, if a Christian does hold any or all of these beliefs please join the debate - conversly if a Christian holds none of these beliefs as true please join anyway but be aware I'm not currently taking you to task on your beliefs as I clearly have no idea what you believe. But by all means let's me know what you do believe and I'd be happy to debate that, or better yet get your opinion on the above practices as I'm sure we have some common groud on our disapproval of some issues"

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by purpledawn, posted 03-25-2013 9:34 AM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 74 of 652 (694479)
03-25-2013 6:19 AM


"I accept that the sun is going to become a red giant and will likely incinerate the entire inner solar system. Before that, the sun's aging will have erased all terrestrial life. I claim that those are the consequences for even those who worship Apollo and believe he will prevent such things. I don't accept that my belief in such a horrible thing is morally bankrupt."
To suppose that it is an inevitable out come of cosmology is not immoral
To suggest that it is due to human sin and is a Devine punishment is immoral - for starters its blatently dishonest and falls into numerous other theological traps, universal punishment of all the solar system and genocidal tendencies for one

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2013 8:23 AM GrimSqueaker has not replied
 Message 77 by purpledawn, posted 03-25-2013 8:54 AM GrimSqueaker has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 75 of 652 (694490)
03-25-2013 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by GrimSqueaker
03-25-2013 6:19 AM


To suppose that it is an inevitable out come of cosmology is not immoral
Even a cosmology that God set into motion?
for starters its blatently dishonest
Dishonest implies that Christians know that their religion is false. You haven't come anywhere close to making that argument. But perhaps it is what you truly believe.
A true Christians tells you that judgment is the consequence of human sin because he/she believe that to be just as inevitable as it is that the sun will expand into a red giant. If judgment is false not then a Christian is a fool and worse, but not liar.
Yet to wish away to sun to avoid such a fate is completely inane.
universal punishment of all the solar system and genocidal tendencies
Say what?
The solar system, being not animate, cannot be punished, and surely the inner portions of it other than earth are not habitable. Perhaps a red giant will support life in parts of the solar system that cannot support life now.
But besides all of that, I don't want the sun to blow up. So where are my genocidal tendencies being demonstrated?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-25-2013 6:19 AM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
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