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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 46 of 652 (694232)
03-23-2013 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Tangle
03-23-2013 10:56 AM


Re: On original sin
Telling the truth is Christian, and I have no idea what you are trying to accuse me of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Tangle, posted 03-23-2013 10:56 AM Tangle has not replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 47 of 652 (694234)
03-23-2013 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
03-23-2013 10:39 AM


Re: On original sin
quote:
It isn't my view, I'm not inventing this, I'm simply reminding you of everyday facts that you prefer to ignore or deny. It's just a biological fact that we are descended from ancestors that had to fight for their survival and it's a historical fact that human society has become more civilized as it has developed more and better institutions and technologies.
You can ignore these facts and choose to believe instead in the childish mythology of stone age desert tribes if you like, but it doesn't change a single fact.
The biological facts you claim are not facts and the historical facts have nothing to do with the discussion. [/qoute]
Development and growth over time of species, societies and individuals is fact - this isn't an evolution thread so let's not go off on a tangent. Even if u question evolution for some crazy reason u can't question social evolution and that society grows over time
Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed quote(you were spelling it wrong)

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 Message 43 by Faith, posted 03-23-2013 10:39 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 48 of 652 (694236)
03-23-2013 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Omnivorous
03-23-2013 8:31 AM


Re: Confirmation Bias works both ways
Omni writes:
I conclude that only our own intelligence can explore and explain the universe; you conclude our intelligence should be supplanted by beliefs derived from ancient texts that recommend blood sacrifice, slavery and infanticide.
To support your conclusion, you essentially make the creationist argument that science is a faith like any other faith, its adherents and practitioners blinded by a prior i beliefs.
MY beliefs are not derived only from ancient texts. My beliefs are derived from a God who lives today and is as relevant as today's news. Obviously, one who does not believe in such a God has, in my estimation, never encountered such a God...so I can understand the reluctance to accept my beliefs. As for Science, I realize that it is not a faith and is a method and a discipline, to be sure. I also recognize that for those who have no internal(nevermind external) evidence of a living God, it is much more sensible to accept human intellect and discovery as the only way to go.
For me, there is ample evidence that humans are flawed, and in fact even selfish and manipulative creatures. We do have altruistic traits as well, and I will admit to a bias towards original sin...the Bible speaks of such behaviors as being very typical of people. I certainly don't limit my belief in the Bible to the attitudes and beliefs that it shows were done in the past...I take my feelings and actions at today's face value much as I take any of yours. I firmly believe, however, in a living and interactive God that is well aware of human wisdom, progress,potential, and limitation.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 49 of 652 (694237)
03-23-2013 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by GrimSqueaker
03-23-2013 11:07 AM


Re: On original sin
I suggest you reread my post.

This message is a reply to:
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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 50 of 652 (694242)
03-23-2013 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Phat
03-23-2013 11:14 AM


Re: Confirmation Bias works both ways
I really like your comment, it seems quite honest and forthright - but can u share your faith? The bible specifically says that one should be able to explain the reason for the hope they have to others, I'm always interested to learn more and if indeed ur god is alive and well perhaps u can illustrate that to me

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 51 of 652 (694269)
03-23-2013 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by GrimSqueaker
03-23-2013 10:17 AM


Re: Morally Bankrupt
If you want the quote boxes to work, you need to spell quote correctly. Also the point of a quote box is that you are actually quoting what a person is saying, not paraphrasing. What you are posting as a quote is not what I wrote in Message 40. It is your own statement. Please adjust your post accordingly.
Your point is that Christianity is (meaning right now) Morally Bankrupt (meaning lost all sense of right and wrong).
Actual quotes.
PurpleDawn writes:
Christianity can't send anyone to heaven or hell. That's God's choice. This really doesn't reflect on whether Christianity has lost all sense of right and wrong.
Christianity is made up of people. Those people are the ones with a sense of right and wrong. Christians can't send anyone to Christian heaven or Christian hell. It isn't an action they are capable of even if they wanted to. The one who supposedly has that capability is God. If one considers God to be a construct then there is no way for anyone to be sent to Christian heaven or Christian hell since humans don't have that capability.
Again morality deals with action. Do you have any support that anyone has actually been sent to Christian heaven or Christian hell by a human?
PurpleDawn writes:
Again, you're talking about God and making an assumption. Christianity isn't judging one's thoughts.
Show me that Christians have the capability to judge one's thoughts.
quote:
That's a bit silly. A God is a construct of the people within a certain belief system, even if a god was a real think the people who choose to worship him are responsible fpr their choice in worshipping it and condone it ie. If I worship a serpentheadedgod that demands blood sacrifice one can assume I condone blood sacrifice
You really need to lay off the fictional examples. What you presented isn't along the same lines as the issue up for discussion. You presented an scenario where humans could act.
The Christian God isn't presented as demanding that humans send people to Christian heaven, Christian hell, or to read minds and judge accordingly. Only God has that power.
If God is a construct, there is no action and therefore no moral issue.
If God is real, then one needs to provide support that an action has actually taken place before one can say that Christians are condoning an immoral act.
So how has Christianity today actually lost all sense of right and wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-23-2013 10:17 AM GrimSqueaker has replied

Replies to this message:
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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 52 of 652 (694271)
03-23-2013 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by purpledawn
03-23-2013 1:27 PM


Re: Morally Bankrupt
I may be over my head on this one - I'm gonna have to meditate on this and present my argument with much better wording.
I'm kinda new to debating these topics so you'll have to forgive if I'm coming off as something of an beginner

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 652 (694273)
03-23-2013 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by GrimSqueaker
03-20-2013 4:29 PM


Not so fast...
1 - Devine atonement for Sin is a moral loop hole.
If a person does wrong the proper path to righting that wrong is to make recompense to the individual who has been wronged and/or society, prayer and other wishful thinking are moot in comparison to this
3 - Vicarious Redemption.
The crucifixion of Jesus for the atonement of sins is immoral, no person should ever be able to take moral responsibility for another. Certainly one can help someone else shoulder a burden in many ways but no one can take away someone else's responsibility for their actions. This central tenant strikes at the very idea of personal morality
Well, the above is not how things are supposed to work. When you sin, you create an issue between you and God, and in some cases, also between you and you and your fellow humans. Repentance and salvation are enough to clear up things between you and God, but nowhere in the doctrine as I learned it does that mean that your issues between you and your brother, the state, etc. are cleared up. If you steal from your brother and repent, the financial and moral issues between you and your brother remain. We don't let murders out of prison when they repent.
Of course some may find it unjust that God lets you off his personal hook so easy, but it would be highly inconsistent for you to feel that way since you don't believe Hell is appropriate ever.
2 - Heaven and Hell are Unjust.
What does the Bible say about Hell? Most of what some Christians and non-Christians believe about Hell comes from Dante's Inferno and not from the Bible.
4 - Freedom of Choice.
If you were born into a community or joined one who's rules you did not agree with you would be able to leave
And you cannot opt out? Really? You live in a Christianity based theocracy? I'm sure I've missed your point somehow.
5 - Original Sin and Sins of the Father.
Personal responsibility and morality mean little to nothing in a culture where the vilification for crimes can be passed from one generation to the next.
In my opinion, people who read original sin in this way are grossly misreading the Bible. I'd suggest that this idea is neither necessary nor inherent to Christianity. Original sin, in my opinion, is about a man or woman's personal and unavoidable tendency to err, and not on their grandpas.
Thoughts (a common symptom of many psychological illnesses including stress and depression) particularly harmful and unfair as a person may be suffering from their own thoughts anyway and would require compassion and understanding not feelings of guilt and shame, which they probably are already feeling
Uh, no...
It would be pretty bizarre to believe that God punishes the mentally ill in this way, and I don't believe that the Bible requires or even suggests this.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 54 of 652 (694278)
03-23-2013 1:48 PM


At the very lest I can back up my "thought crime" stance, I can't qoute the chapter or verse but as far as I'm aware I believe the bible says
"if you look at a woman with lust you have committed adultery with her in your heart"
Adultery is a sin so I believe that would qualify as a thought crime statement - although as
I said I can't qoute chapter and verse so I am possibly wrong on this phrasing (although the likes of Ray Comfort are big on this point)
Edit : re "opting out"
Again as far as I'm aware by not accepting Jesus as savior etc I am destined for hell, although I have renounced my previous faith apparently I will face judgement for simply being an atheist (as do Pagans, Buddists, etc) - this is an immoral proposition, I asked for no part in this system and yet I'll be judged on it? That is unfair
Edited by GrimSqueaker, : No reason given.
Edited by GrimSqueaker, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 652 (694315)
03-23-2013 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by GrimSqueaker
03-22-2013 7:17 AM


I'm saying it from a commonsensical point of view.

Love your enemies!

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 56 of 652 (694316)
03-23-2013 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by GrimSqueaker
03-23-2013 1:48 PM


If your post was a direct respond to a particular poster, you need to make sure you hit the reply button. You don't always steem to use it and your posts sound like you are responding to a particular post.
quote:
Adultery is a sin so I believe that would qualify as a thought crime statement
Jesus supposedly made that statement in Matthew 5:22. The book of Matthew has a date range of 80-100CE. That's almost 50 years after Jesus left. Early Christian Writings
Judaism has it also.
Babylonian Talmud, Kallah, Ch. 1 - One who gazes lustfully upon the small finger of a married woman, it is as if he has committed adultery with her.
As I mentioned earlier, you made this thread about Christianity today and claiming it has lost all sense of right and wrong. Humans can't read your thoughts and can't act on them. So Christianity won't be judging you
quote:
Again as far as I'm aware by not accepting Jesus as savior etc I am destined for hell, although I have renounced my previous faith apparently I will face judgement for simply being an atheist (as do Pagans, Buddists, etc) - this is an immoral proposition, I asked for no part in this system and yet I'll be judged on it? That is unfair
When one quits Christianity it is wise to leave behind the baggage.
You're still talking about God and not Christianity. Christians cannot send you to hell. Only God can.
Show us that Christianity is morally bankrupt.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 652 (694325)
03-23-2013 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by GrimSqueaker
03-23-2013 1:48 PM


I asked for no part in this system and yet I'll be judged on it? That is unfair
I find your worries about judgment to be completely incompatible with your claimed lack of belief. I'm not particularly worried about getting on the 'Naughty' list despite the horrible consequences promised, because I don't believe in Santa Claus. On the other hand I don't want the 'Book of life' to contain a long list of things I've done that hurt my wife.
Aren't you an atheist? How can you be an atheist and also fear judgment?
Adultery is a sin so I believe that would qualify as a thought crime statement.
If you are a Christian, you simply repent and move on. Perhaps you avoid putting yourself in position to stare at Yolanda's booty in the future. If you are not a Christian, you ignore the issue and move on. None of us get to even know you've got the hots for Yolanda until either you tell us or we catch you with a boner, so we don't judge you.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-23-2013 1:48 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-24-2013 4:02 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 58 of 652 (694345)
03-24-2013 3:26 AM


You need a standard to make a judgement
How can we rate any moral code if we don't have an absolute standard to rate it by?

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 59 of 652 (694352)
03-24-2013 7:12 AM


This reply is to both Nonukes and Purpledawn
God is a construct of those who choose to believe and interpet - hence it is illogical and kinda a cop out to say "don't blame the Christians it's god that decides this", even if he is real Christians decide to go along with it which at the very least makes them an assersory to his monstrosity - although Id be happy to tweak the title of this thread if it is causing issue, would "God is a soulless monster" be preferrable?
I should mention I am not afraid of God in the slightest, Christians do occasionally give me pause for thought though. Where I am using "I" and "me" to illustrate a point I am merely illustrating a point. Hell even if you could prove to me the bible/god/Jesus were all 100% real I've read to much of the bible to worship such a creature and would still have the same stance of moral superiority

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 60 of 652 (694361)
03-24-2013 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by GrimSqueaker
03-24-2013 7:12 AM


Bad form to change the title. The new one wouldn't work any better for you. Is means in the present.
quote:
God is a construct of those who choose to believe and interpet - hence it is illogical and kinda a cop out to say "don't blame the Christians it's god that decides this", even if he is real Christians decide to go along with it which at the very least makes them an assersory to his monstrosity - although Id be happy to tweak the title of this thread if it is causing issue, would "God is a soulless monster" be preferrable?
Great so God's a construct and Christians support that construct's right to send anyone who doesn't believe appropriately to Christian hell. People support the idea that Santa Clause shouldn't bring toys to bad kids. That doesn't mean the people have lost all sense of right and wrong, which is what morally bankrupt means. Notice the word all.
People make up Christianity. The construct is not Christianity.
Start answering some of the questions asked of you and we might get the discussion moving. You're just repeating yourself and restating your position. Move forward with the discussion.
People do right behavior and wrong behavior. How many wrongs are needed before a real person is considered immoral?
Again morality deals with actions. Decide whether you're arguing from the viewpoint of God as a construct or God as real. A construct can't send anyone to Christian hell or read anyone's mind. Neither can humans. No action is taking place.
You're trying to argue about a foundational myth and deeming anyone who likes it as morally bankrupt. Rooting for the bad guys in a story doesn't make one morally bankrupt. Moral bankruptcy depends on actions.
If you're arguing from the standpoint that God is real, then you need to show that an immoral action has taken place in the present age.

This message is a reply to:
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