|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Christianity is Morally Bankrupt | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You found a myth that explained it in a Grimm's Story way. You didn't find the explanation. Oh but I did find the explanation, and it explains just about everything.
The problem you have is that you needed an explanation other than the real and obvious one, which is that we're descended from animals that have to fight other animals for their survival. So we have many of those attributes. We are beginning to find our way out of our upbringing through our intellect and our secular institutions. We no longer have need for mythology to provide the reasons why we are what we are. So we can finally do something about it. What a bunch of pontificating bombast. Funny how you think you can assert your view as if it were unassailable truth, and expand on it with your evolutionized mythos as if that adds anything to the assertion, just the usual fantasy belief system blah blah blah but somehow it gets a pass as if it really meant something. Well I can assert mine too, and mine IS unassailable truth.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
I got a sense of the concept of Original Sin sometime during the period when I was becoming a believer, back in the 80s, and far from Coyote's take on it for me it was like a brilliant light went on that illuminated this dark world. I felt that finally I had an explanation for the evils in this world that otherwise have no explanation. To my mind the doctrine is essential and precious for that reason. It takes a chaotic world in which people do horrible things to each other and makes it understandable. Unlike you, I do not consider myself or my species to have been born evil, nor do I consider that we require the intercession of a shaman to cure this inherent (but nonexistent) evilness. But I can see why shamans would want to promote this doctrine, as it empowers them and puts grits on the table. "Do what I say or you'll be forever damned. But for a small fee..." Bah!Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
|
grim writes:
You and I are diametrically opposites. I am 99.9999% sure that God exists, and I would never dare to be proud of my own intellect and integrity. Additionally, your denial of Jesus in the flesh as Gods Son is an antichrist spirit, and dare I say that this is the entire reason for your topic. Humans are bankrupt insofar as our ability to do anything good within us...apart from God. Indeed, we owe our very lives to Him. I have seen evidence of a supernatural reality, and I can only warn you of your inner humanistic pride regarding your own efforts. This belief will fail.
I'm not an anti theist due to my own intellectual integrity BUT I would lean very heavily in that direction, as such I am 99.999999% that all the goodness and kindness (which is the vibe I'm getting from u) in you, begins and ends in u - the existence of a higher power would lessens that, and believe in one does yourself a disservice. Whatever you achieve in life you do so by the Grace of Jar and you should be damn proud of that. Any obstacle you over come or problem you squash, Grace of Jar again.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GrimSqueaker Member (Idle past 3717 days) Posts: 137 From: Ireland Joined: |
Hmmmmm upon rereading that post wasn't my best work - but I suppose I'm having a little trouble wording my objections to you position.
Let me try again, I'm gonna break this down From what I see you give some credit to a supernatural being for the good in ur life For each interest group that recieves credit for anything after the first group reduces the amount of credit attributed to each group, as opposed to a soul group recording 100% of the credit (I'm having trouble with the wording of this, I hope this is clear) From all the evidence it suggests there are no supernatural beings Any credit for the actions of humans attributed to supernatural beings assistance is wasted This is unfortunate on a personal scale and traffic when applied to human endeavours on a more global scale **************^^^*****^*^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Really hope this is clear, I'm finding this hard to write down
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GrimSqueaker Member (Idle past 3717 days) Posts: 137 From: Ireland Joined: |
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - can u present any for the god hypothesis? U say ur 99.999999% sure, u must have some damn good stuff.
O. Razor is gonna say that natural explainations are more likely to be true than supernatural ones - I pointed out in a different thread that historically supernatural explanations always fall down compared to natural ones; Germ Theory VS Demonic Possession Electricity VS Thor Cosmology VS a tiny orbiting sun Etc etc - it goes on and on through out all of human understanding, why would we ever expect a supernatural explanation to win out?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
1) I have heard extraordinary evidence of demonic possession/oppression in that I clearly heard several differnet voices at once come out of a guy...in my own living room. There was quite simply no other valid explanations as to why this occurred and two others also witnessed this event.
why would we ever expect a supernatural explanation to win out? You wouldn't, because your bias leans the other way to begin with. You have said yourself you don't want any sort of supernatural entity to trump your human reasoning anyway. You are, in fact, proud of your ability to rationalize and explain without resorting to any need to surrender. Thus, I never would expect you to accept any claim...valid or otherwise In fact, I would assert that human understanding by majority tries to disprove rather than prove God. We simply by nature would prefer to be our own gods. Answer me this, though. Is it logical for the sum of intelligence located on a virtual dust speck among one of many hundreds of billions of galaxies to defiantly limit its collective belief on human wisdom alone? Sounds a bit pompous and defiant to me. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Chuck Colson writes: Christians can not support Rand’s philosophy and Christ’s teachings. The choice is simple: Ayn Rand or Jesus Christ. We must choose one and forsake the other.My Take: Christianity and Ayn Rand's philosophy are 2 distinct religions Rand's philosophy is far from "proven" except in the singlularly philosphical point that people are self-centered and that erality is independent of consciousness. Her precept that the greatest moral good is your own selfish happiness is childish and reflects the maturity level of a teenager and we see how this idea has become the moral center of American society already and look at the disasterous results. We have hundreds of millions of people seeking nothing but their own happiness and hurting others in the process. We have a society of happy people (happiness is temporary and fleeting) who are miserable and "in need" of drugs to keep them from violence, depression and suicide. Moral objectivism is a failure and we all see it. AMEN to that! Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
|
Faith writes: Funny how you think you can assert your view as if it were unassailable truth, and expand on it with your evolutionized mythos as if that adds anything to the assertion, just the usual fantasy belief system blah blah blah but somehow it gets a pass as if it really meant something. It isn't my view, I'm not inventing this, I'm simply reminding you of everyday facts that you prefer to ignore or deny. It's just a biolgical fact that we are descended from anscestors that had to fight for their survival and it's a historical fact that human society has become more civilised as it has developed more and better institutions and technologies. You can ignore these facts and choose to believe instead in the childish mythology of stone age desert tribes if you like, but it doesn't change a single fact. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GrimSqueaker Member (Idle past 3717 days) Posts: 137 From: Ireland Joined: |
Technically a personal experience is NOT qualifiable as evidence, I'm a realistic guy if I am presented evidence I will submit - I only came to atheism by accident, I began as a Christian and over my teen years I became a goddess worshiper and a magick practitioner (who still revered Jesus). I have seen and made incredible things happen, I summoned spiriits, communed with the dead and witnessed cast spells taking effect. After researching my experiences and trying to understand them I discovered wonderful things about psychology, science and history but nothing in the way of supernatural materials. Further more I'm a semi professional magician now (check out Grim Squeaker on YouTube!) and that has deepened my understanding of how easy the human mind and personal experience is too fool.
Or simply my bias was toward supernatural when I began my research and I found it wanting and I reject ur demonic possession story as evidence (it itself would require e ordinary evidence - and I would question your knowledge of psychology), what else ya got?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Fortunately on the religious side of this forum, scientific evidence is not required. Reasoned argumentation is and any support available for that argumentation.
I don't really see that you have supported the idea that Christianity has lost all sense of right and wrong. From Message 1.
quote: Divine atonement isn't about righting the wrong that was done. Making amends is taught within Christianity.
quote: Christianity can't send anyone to heaven or hell. That's God's choice. This really doesn't reflect on whether Christianity has lost all sense of right and wrong.
quote: That happened over 2000 years ago and wasn't done by Christians. Not really a point for your argument about Christianity. As pointed out above, atonement doesn't take away anyone's responsibility for their own actions.
quote: Morality deals with right and wrong behavior in day to day living. People can stop being Christians or become Christians. Even within the club they can be as active or inactive as they choose. If they don't like that particular group they can change to another one.
quote: Sins of the father gone before Christianity formed.
Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. The Original Sin Doctrine issue is more about explaining why man is not perfect. Basically blaming the inclination to sin on Adam.
Irenaeus believed that Adam's sin had grave consequences for humanity, that it is the source of human sinfulness, mortality and enslavement to sin, and that all human beings participate in his sin and share his guilt.[9] This doesn't really show that Christianity has lost all sense of right and wrong.
quote: Again, you're talking about God and making an assumption. Christianity isn't judging one's thoughts. So how has Christianity actually lost all sense of right and wrong?
Universal Moral Code
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Omnivorous Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9
|
Phat writes: Answer me this, though. Is it logical for the sum of intelligence located on a virtual dust speck among one of many hundreds of billions of galaxies to defiantly limit its collective belief on human wisdom alone? Sounds a bit pompous and defiant to me. It is preeminently logical to draw that conclusion. Logic and science yielded the knowledge of "many hundreds of billions of galaxies." To consider the millennia of failed religious claims--and the failure of religion to reveal anything true about the natural world--and to then conclude supernatural explanations are empty ones, is not an example of bias: it is a logical, evidence-based conclusion. It is far more pompous to believe without one shred of evidence that an omnipotent being created and monitors this "dust speck" of ours because we're so special. What could be more smug than that? I conclude that only our own intelligence can explore and explain the universe; you conclude our intelligence should be supplanted by beliefs derived from ancient texts that recommend blood sacrifice, slavery and infanticide. To support your conclusion, you essentially make the creationist argument that science is a faith like any other faith, its adherents and practitioners blinded by a priori beliefs. Do you truly believe that?"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GrimSqueaker Member (Idle past 3717 days) Posts: 137 From: Ireland Joined: |
If I get u right what your saying is (well partially that some of my assumptions r wrong and maybe I can tackle that later but - )
quote: That's a bit silly. A God is a construct of the people within a certain belief system, even if a god was a real think the people who choose to worship him are responsible fpr their choice in worshipping it and condone it ie. If I worship a serpentheadedgod that demands blood sacrifice one can assume I condone blood sacrifice Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed broken(misspelled) quote
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It isn't my view, I'm not inventing this, I'm simply reminding you of everyday facts that you prefer to ignore or deny. It's just a biolgical fact that we are descended from anscestors that had to fight for their survival and it's a historical fact that human society has become more civilised as it has developed more and better institutions and technologies. You can ignore these facts and choose to believe instead in the childish mythology of stone age desert tribes if you like, but it doesn't change a single fact. The biological facts you claim are not facts and the historical facts have nothing to do with the discussion. This is what you said:
The problem you have is that you needed an explanation other than the real and obvious one, which is that we're descended from animals that have to fight other animals for their survival. So we have many of those attributes. We are beginning to find our way out of our upbringing through our intellect and our secular institutions. We no longer have need for mythology to provide the reasons why we are what we are. So we can finally do something about it. As I said, this is nothing but pontificating bombast, fanciful stuff made up out of thin air, the usual evolutionist fairy tale, given as the usual counter to the Christian claim about original sin. Sad if you can't recognize that this is a fanciful tale even less interesting than the Grimms would have written. However, who cares. Original Sin is my explanation for the phenomena under discussion. You are welcome to your own, stupid and ugly though it is. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
From what I see you give some credit to a supernatural being for the good in ur life I am assuming you meant this as a reply to my Message 18. If not then just disregard what follows. I believe that all that is, seen and unseen was created by GOD and so I am grateful for my very existence. Yes, I do give credit to GOD for the good in my life but that has nothing to do with the content of Message 18. The part that you objected to in Message 29 was:
jar writes: "As to having saved myself? Nonsense. There is no way I can save myself. If I am saved it will only be through the Grace of GOD." That sentence refers to a judgement of my behavior after I have died. I understand that I am fully responsible for my behavior. I find the concept of "Original Sin" just a weak and pitiful attempt to avoid responsibility. It's easily marketed. I find the concept of Jesus death as payment for sins trivializes and diminishes Jesus and that it's just another easy out way to avoid taking responsibility. It's easily marketed. To assume in addition that Jesus death only pays for the sins of some sycophant cult makes GOD really look imbecilic, dimwitted, doltish, pitiful and evil. But I am also honest enough to know that I have not lived up to either my full potential or to the charge I have been given. If there is an afterlife and a judgement, I know that I failed overall. When judged, the verdict will be just that; I have not done all I should have done and did things I should not have done. If I am forgiven though can only be by the Grace of GOD.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
|
Faith writes: However, who cares. Original Sin is my explanation for the phenomena under discussion. You are welcome to your own, stupid and ugly though it is. That's the most interesting thing about Christians, the more fundamental their beliefs, the less Christian they behave.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024