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Author Topic:   Did Dinosaurs live with man?
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 91 of 373 (664702)
06-04-2012 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by arachnophilia
05-31-2012 1:30 PM


Re: maybe
Arachnophillia writes:
it really is, yeah. but they're getting better! the ones in the 80's were particularly bad, because the whole "birds are dinosaurs" thing hadn't really hit the popular culture yet. even though jurassic park showed a bunch of plucked and naked dromaeosaurs running around, it was still largely responsible for bring this idea into the public consciousness.
So how many Jurassic Dinos had feathers? Did the T-rex?

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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(4)
Message 92 of 373 (664715)
06-04-2012 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Artemis Entreri
06-04-2012 11:56 AM


The Song Of The Dinosaurs
So how many Jurassic Dinos had feathers? Did the T-rex?
Quite possibly.
The question that fascinates me is whether they sang. Movies have them roaring like lions, but why should they? Reptiles don't do that. But birds sing, couldn't that have been basal in dinosaurs? (IIRC, baby crocodiles make "cheep" noises just like baby birds, and they're archosaurs, so ...)
I imagine, though I may be wrong in this, that the larger dinosaurs would have had deeper voices. Imagine the "dawn chorus" in the Cretaceous period as the ceratopians and stegosaurs began to boom forth their ponderous oratorios ...
I don't know if this is the sort of thing we could ever be in a position to find out, but I like to think about it.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 93 of 373 (664739)
06-04-2012 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Dr Adequate
06-04-2012 1:27 PM


Re: The Song Of The Dinosaurs
Hi Dr Adequate
Aren't there some dinosaurs with trumpet-like chambers that have been hypothesized as noise-makers?
Page not found - The Dinosaurs
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.

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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 94 of 373 (664740)
06-04-2012 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Dr Adequate
06-04-2012 1:27 PM


Re: The Song Of The Dinosaurs
The question that fascinates me is whether they sang. Movies have them roaring like lions, but why should they? Reptiles don't do that. But birds sing, couldn't that have been basal in dinosaurs? (IIRC, baby crocodiles make "cheep" noises just like baby birds, and they're archosaurs, so ...)
I imagine, though I may be wrong in this, that the larger dinosaurs would have had deeper voices. Imagine the "dawn chorus" in the Cretaceous period as the ceratopians and stegosaurs began to boom forth their ponderous oratorios ...
I don't know if this is the sort of thing we could ever be in a position to find out, but I like to think about it.
i don't know. many prey species are quiet, but birds are all pretty darn loud.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 373 (664742)
06-04-2012 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Artemis Entreri
06-04-2012 5:29 PM


Re: The Song Of The Dinosaurs
So are frogs, many insects, cattle, sheep, goats, bison, elk...

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 96 of 373 (664753)
06-04-2012 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Dr Adequate
06-04-2012 1:27 PM


Re: The Song Of The Dinosaurs
The question that fascinates me is whether they sang.
Did they sing? Duh!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsKO_r76kfQ
I apologise for any cerebral hemorrages caused by clicking that link.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


(1)
Message 97 of 373 (664760)
06-04-2012 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Artemis Entreri
06-04-2012 11:45 AM


Re: general reply
Artemis Entreri writes:
For example this is my local museum (also the national museum): Paleobiology | Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History
It is the Smithsonian, it’s in Washington D,C. on the mall, a couple blocks from the white house, It’s the museum I go to, to see exhibits, and where I go when I want to see Dinosaurs. If you follow the link there are two kinds of animals on the opening homepage.
i see the following:
  • a ceratopsian skeleton (dinosaur)
  • some kind of pterosaur (not a dinosaur)
  • several dragonflies (not dinosaurs)
  • a turtle (not a dinosaur)
it goes on to list allosaurs and diplodocus, both of which are dinosaurs. i agree the art is confusing. but if you follow through to the faq page, what it states appears to be correct (though we might quibble about the "reptile" part):
quote:
A dinosaur can be defined as "The most recent common ancestor of Iguanodon and Megalosaurus, and all of its descendants".
A dinosaur can be diagnosed as a reptile with the following suite of characters: Jaw muscles that reach up onto the top of the skull, plus a big ridge on the upper arm bone (humerus), plus bony processes at the hip, knee, and ankle to help them stand with their limbs straight under the body.
Most dinosaurs can be identified because they have an erect limb posture, plus the three bones of the pelvis (ilium, ischium, pubis) are joined to form an open hip socket for reception of the thigh bone (femur), plus the longest finger is the second finger. You might find some of these features in other reptiles, but not all together.
i believe if you look through the dinosaur type specimens listing, they'll all be dinosaurs. but i haven't checked.
I must admit, I never really checked their facts I just said ok, this is the dinosaur exhibit, some flew, some swam, some had huge fins on their backs, most were big.
yeah, unless you're reading closely, you'll probably never notice that they've thrown in a bunch of not-dinosaurs because they look cool.

אָרַח

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 98 of 373 (664761)
06-04-2012 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Artemis Entreri
06-04-2012 11:56 AM


Re: maybe
Artemis Entreri writes:
So how many Jurassic Dinos had feathers? Did the T-rex?
well, tyrannosaurus rex was a cretaceous dinosaur. they lived pretty much right before the KT event (the extinction of the non-avian dinosaurs at the end of the cretaceous). and it's unknown whether or not they were feathered. it's known, however, that earlier tyrannosaurs had simple feathers. so if t. rex did not have feathers, they were probably lost secondarily. many large animals don't need extra structures like feather or fur or hair to help keep them warm, depending on their environment. think elephants (africa and india) vs woolly mammoths.

אָרַח

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 99 of 373 (664762)
06-05-2012 12:02 AM


Horse feathers!
Feathers or not, dinos didn't live at the same time man did.
Minor discrepancy of ca. 65 million years.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 100 of 373 (664768)
06-05-2012 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Coyote
06-05-2012 12:02 AM


Re: Horse feathers!
birds are dinosaurs, so, yes they do.
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 101 of 373 (664769)
06-05-2012 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by arachnophilia
06-05-2012 12:49 AM


Re: Horse feathers!
Don't pick nits, it's unbecoming. And you'll just confuse the creationists.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


(3)
Message 102 of 373 (664777)
06-05-2012 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Coyote
06-05-2012 12:52 AM


Re: Horse feathers!
Coyote writes:
Don't pick nits, it's unbecoming.
it's not a nitpick. it's not a technicality. it's a fact. birds are dinosaurs the same way that coyotes are mammals, or people are primates.
And you'll just confuse the creationists.
well, yes, probably. but then again if creationists weren't confused by biology, they wouldn't be creationists. so i see no point in giving out incorrect information just to suit them. nor do i see any point in following their lead, and letting them define the discussion, based on their inaccurate assumptions.
rather, it's better to go back and redefine the debate using the correct terms, explaining along the way what dinosaurs actually are. see the above discussion with artemis. the fact that birds are dinosaurs is very strongly established, and the avian family tree is chock full of transitional forms. it's quite an compelling example of evolution in action, as you can trace dinosaurian evolution from basal archosaurs (which were more similar to crocodilians) to modern birds, in a pretty clear and obvious way.
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.

אָרַח

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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(2)
Message 103 of 373 (664782)
06-05-2012 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Artemis Entreri
06-04-2012 11:56 AM


Re: maybe
So how many Jurassic Dinos had feathers? Did the T-rex?
The small relatives of T. Rexes had feathers, but skin impressions from big Tyrannosaurids show that they had scaly skin at least over part of their bodies; with no sign of feathers. They probably lost their feathers when they got big for the same reasons that elephants have very little hair - big animals retain more heat, so a big, feathered T. Rex might have overheated.
However, while most of the body would be naked, there's no reason that a T. Rex couldn't have some feathers, perhaps for display. I like the idea of a giant, predatory dinosaur with a big fancy crest of feathers to impress the ladies. It's also possible that the babies were born covered in fluffy feathers that fell out when they got big.

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MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1976 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 104 of 373 (693619)
03-18-2013 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by arachnophilia
06-05-2012 3:11 AM


Horse feathers & Confusing Creationists
Just to put my 2 cents worth in, I'd like to just summarise an answer to the question of this thread for Creationists.
Question :
"Did dinosaurs live with man?"

.
The way most creationists and general members of the public will translate this question in their minds would probably be : "Did modern humans (H. sapiens) live during the Mesozoic era? (the era that was dominated by the dinosaurs - that is occupying most of the tetrapod ecological niches of the time.
The short answer to this is No, modern humans or even hominims, did not live at the same time as dinosaurs during the Mesozoic.
However, a qualification should be added :
It is generally accepted by most biologists, ornithologists and palaeontologists today that birds (called Avialae in scientific parlance) are a sub-group within the clade Dinosauria which are all grouped under the Class Reptilia.
Given that modern birds (Avialae) are considered to be Dinosaurs, then we can say that dinosaurs have been living with H. sapiens (modern humans) since humans originated in Africa approximately 200,000 years ago.

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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 105 of 373 (693659)
03-19-2013 8:55 AM


I am being a little hasty in reply and I haven't fully read the thread yet, so I am sorry if this point is moot.
I have to ask do u think Tolkien met living examples of Homo floresiensis (the race lovingly refereed to as Hobbits by modern scientists)?
Mythology and story telling are wonderful, and many bizarre and beautiful creatures have been spawned from human imaginations - but as they say any similarity to people(creatures) living or dead is purely coincidental
I should also add why would existng dinosaurs affect our understanding of evolution at all? It'd be cool to imagine Dinosaurs VS Cavemen like in an old B-Movie but it wouldn't change Evolutionary theory one jot - although there would be quite a few red faced palaeontologists. If there is a chain of logic linking Dinosuars => No Evolution I'm afraid it eludes me
R u expecting to find fossilised Griffons, Hydras, unicorns, cthulhu, centaurs, goblins, orks, elves, the StayPuffed MarshmellowMan, etc
Even if there is a link between fossils and dragon lore it is simpler to suggest that the fossils inspired the stories similar to how elephant remains inspired stories of the cyclops
Edited by GrimSqueaker, : No reason given.

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