Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

Summations Only

Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 1861 of 5179 (691471)
02-22-2013 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1852 by Faith
02-21-2013 6:03 PM


Battle of New Orleans, 1814
Battle at the Alamo, 1836

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1852 by Faith, posted 02-21-2013 6:03 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1869 by Percy, posted 02-23-2013 7:50 AM Taq has not replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 1862 of 5179 (691473)
02-22-2013 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1857 by Faith
02-22-2013 7:35 AM


Re: cheers and jeers
Faith writes:
Way the game is played here, too bad but way it goes.
Their is a large contingent of non-jeer and low-jeer posters here: call it the silent majority.
Everyone plays their own game.
So if "the way the game is played" is how it has to be for you, then that is the game you choose to play.
Didn't your mother ever ask you, "Well, would you jump off a cliff just because everyone else did? "

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1857 by Faith, posted 02-22-2013 7:35 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1865 by Faith, posted 02-22-2013 5:35 PM Omnivorous has replied

DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3776 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


(1)
Message 1863 of 5179 (691485)
02-22-2013 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1857 by Faith
02-22-2013 7:35 AM


Re: cheers and jeers
Could you not entertain the notion that the 'jeer' might be in response to what the 'jeerer' believes is a flawed argument. Jeers aren't just for showing disapproval for a lack of civility.
Not that it matters, but I very rarely 'jeer' anyone and never for a perceived lack of civility. If I do jeer or cheer something I have read, it is for my belief in the strength of the argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1857 by Faith, posted 02-22-2013 7:35 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1864 by Faith, posted 02-22-2013 5:33 PM DBlevins has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1864 of 5179 (691509)
02-22-2013 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1863 by DBlevins
02-22-2013 2:59 PM


Re: cheers and jeers
Sure, and that's no doubt a major reason they think they are jeering me. So what? It's still essentially a disagreement which is what others here were saying shouldn't be the target of a jeer. In any case it has ZERO edification value and only serves as antagonism for the sake of blowing off steam.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1863 by DBlevins, posted 02-22-2013 2:59 PM DBlevins has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 1865 of 5179 (691511)
02-22-2013 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1862 by Omnivorous
02-22-2013 1:40 PM


Re: cheers and jeers
I'm responding primarily to how I am treated. There are three posters who seem to never miss a chance to jeer me and there is no way to know why, it's just pure hatred. Yes I may take it out on others who don't play that game.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1862 by Omnivorous, posted 02-22-2013 1:40 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1866 by Omnivorous, posted 02-22-2013 6:08 PM Faith has not replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 1866 of 5179 (691518)
02-22-2013 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1865 by Faith
02-22-2013 5:35 PM


Re: cheers and jeers
Faith writes:
Yes I may take it out on others who don't play that game.
I truly didn't mean to single you out.
Nonetheless, I cheer your honesty. I've done the same.
Sorry to drag everyone off-topic: back to ~lurking.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1865 by Faith, posted 02-22-2013 5:35 PM Faith has not replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 1867 of 5179 (691519)
02-22-2013 6:11 PM


J onifre
You so funny punk because yo mama was so fat, when she sat around the house, she sat AROUND the house.
Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Replies to this message:
 Message 1868 by Omnivorous, posted 02-22-2013 6:13 PM Omnivorous has seen this message but not replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 1868 of 5179 (691520)
02-22-2013 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1867 by Omnivorous
02-22-2013 6:11 PM


Re: J onifre
And your daddy was so ugly, your grandpa told your mama, "Honey, would you just f*** that boy so he'll take his ugly ass outta my house!?"

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1867 by Omnivorous, posted 02-22-2013 6:11 PM Omnivorous has seen this message but not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1869 of 5179 (691578)
02-23-2013 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1861 by Taq
02-22-2013 1:36 PM


Theodoric asked Faith to explain why she was citing the Battle of New Orleans so that he didn't have to sift through a video looking for her point, and I was wondering the same thing and equally didn't want to watch a video, but I was in a different mood today and so I watched the video.
It was short and thoroughly enjoyable.
It was a photo montage set to the music of "The Battle of New Orleans" by Johnny Horton. Every time they sang "the hounds couldn't catch him" there were pictures of hounds. Every time they sang "the briers and the brambles" there were pictures of briers and brambles. Every time they sang "down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico" there were pictures of the Gulf of Mexico. At one point there was that picture of a squirrel firing a machine gun that Dennis Markuze liked so much.
There was one minor inaccuracy - the video's title places the battle in 1814 when it was actually in 1815.
But there was no citizenry involved. This battle was between two armies, one British and one American. The American army was attempting to repel, successfully in the end but after the war was officially over, a British invasion. The video's title picture actually shows US General Andrew Jackson in uniform.
So this battle supports Faith's position about the need for an armed citizenry to counterbalance the possible rise of tyrannical government so poorly that she must have been making some other point, but I can't imagine what it was. Your Alamo reference doesn't seem to fit as rebuttal, either, so maybe I'm missing something.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1861 by Taq, posted 02-22-2013 1:36 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1870 by Faith, posted 02-23-2013 9:21 AM Percy has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1870 of 5179 (691588)
02-23-2013 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1869 by Percy
02-23-2013 7:50 AM


Glad you enjoyed it. It was really mostly a whimsical post for your entertainment. Amusing little song. I do think however that it's fair to call Jackson's rather ragtag army a citizen army. They were made up of quite a motley crew. See picture at 2:29 on the counter. Those were guys who brought their own guns with them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1869 by Percy, posted 02-23-2013 7:50 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1871 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2013 9:40 AM Faith has replied
 Message 1880 by Percy, posted 02-23-2013 1:50 PM Faith has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1871 of 5179 (691594)
02-23-2013 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1870 by Faith
02-23-2013 9:21 AM


I do think however that it's fair to call Jackson's rather ragtag army a citizen army.
They were in fact the militia. They were called up, trained, at least for the time available to train, armed, and placed under the command of government appointed generals and officers. If there is some point for an armed citizenry other than the militia, I think something more than naming the battle and calling the soldiers rag tag is needed.
As for the Alamo, which someone else mentioned, I don't see any point. A bunch of well armed soldiers gets their butt kicked by a foreign army because the government cannot or will not send reinforcements. Unless someone is rooting for the Mexicans, I don't see any point related to arming or not arming citizens during peacetime.
On the other hand, the Wilmington Insurrection of 1898, an event Jon labels as 'democracy in action' was indeed a case of an armed citizenry rebelling against the local government and winning by bearing and use arms. It is quite possible the only example of s successful armed rebellion. Yet somehow, I never seem to hear Wayne LaPierre cite the Wilmington Insurrection. Why do you suppose that is?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1870 by Faith, posted 02-23-2013 9:21 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1872 by Faith, posted 02-23-2013 9:45 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 1877 by Taq, posted 02-23-2013 10:35 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1872 of 5179 (691596)
02-23-2013 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1871 by NoNukes
02-23-2013 9:40 AM


They were in fact the militia.
Yes, indeed, that's what they were, the armed citizenry called up for service, which is exactly what the Second Amendment had in mind.
They were called up and trained, at least for the time available to train, and placed under the command of government appointed generals.
Righto. All consistent with the idea of the militia in the Second Amendment. They were not a standing army, they were citizen gun owners called together and trained for this war.
If there is some point for an armed citizenry during peacetime here, I think something more than naming the battle and calling the soldier's rag tag is needed.
The idea is that an armed citizenry is necessary for defense of home and family and country when needed. The point is that the militia is made up of gun owning citizens. They can be trained periodically in peacetime it seems to me, not just trained at the last minute for an invasion, but those are the details, the principle is the same.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1871 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2013 9:40 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1873 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2013 9:50 AM Faith has replied
 Message 1874 by Theodoric, posted 02-23-2013 9:59 AM Faith has replied
 Message 1885 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 02-25-2013 1:14 PM Faith has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1873 of 5179 (691597)
02-23-2013 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1872 by Faith
02-23-2013 9:45 AM


They can be trained periodically in peacetime it seems to me, not just trained at the last minute for an invasion, but those are the details, the principle is the same.
Indeed. That would be the National Guard that you are describing.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1872 by Faith, posted 02-23-2013 9:45 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1875 by Faith, posted 02-23-2013 10:02 AM NoNukes has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1874 of 5179 (691601)
02-23-2013 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1872 by Faith
02-23-2013 9:45 AM


So you are now retracting all of your previous arguments?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1872 by Faith, posted 02-23-2013 9:45 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1876 by Faith, posted 02-23-2013 10:03 AM Theodoric has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1875 of 5179 (691602)
02-23-2013 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1873 by NoNukes
02-23-2013 9:50 AM


The National Guard isn't primarily an armed citizenry, they get armed when they are called. They are an army, they aren't the militia as I understand the Second Amendment's use of the term.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1873 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2013 9:50 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1878 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2013 10:38 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 1879 by Taq, posted 02-23-2013 10:38 AM Faith has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024