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Author Topic:   Theory: Why The Exodus Myth Exists
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6239 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 61 of 289 (69074)
11-24-2003 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Rei
11-24-2003 1:57 PM


In short, we know relatively little about where the Hyksos came from; claiming specifically that they were from Canaan (which, if I am reading you correctly, you are attempting to do - if not, please clarify) would be quite a stretch at this point.
Please name the diagnostic features that allows you to distinguish the West Semitic "Hyksos" from the West Semitic "Canaanite".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Rei, posted 11-24-2003 1:57 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Rei, posted 11-25-2003 1:05 PM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

  
Len Lisenbee
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 289 (69122)
11-25-2003 12:21 AM


You should research the discoveries of Ron Wyatt -- they would answer many of your questions about Exodus and much more that come from the Bible. Also, search for "ark of the covenant" and you will read about how Ron actually found the ark -- directly under the "cross hole" that held the cross of Jesus! Why was this? God demands that all things be done right. The blood of the Jewish sacrifice had to be sprinkled on the ark. There is a crack in the rock inside the cross hole. It permitted the blood of Jesus to run down and be sprinkled on the ark. Oh, and there is human blood residue on the stone cover of the ark. When analyzed it was found to contain only 24 chromosomes, not the usual 46. Why? Jesus' virgin birth. Mary supplied 23, and God supplied one single y chromosome to make the male child. Interesting, huh?
Len Lisenbee

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by NosyNed, posted 11-25-2003 12:25 AM Len Lisenbee has not replied
 Message 64 by Asgara, posted 11-25-2003 12:45 AM Len Lisenbee has not replied
 Message 65 by Minnemooseus, posted 11-25-2003 12:51 AM Len Lisenbee has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 63 of 289 (69123)
11-25-2003 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Len Lisenbee
11-25-2003 12:21 AM


You really believe all that don't you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Len Lisenbee, posted 11-25-2003 12:21 AM Len Lisenbee has not replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 64 of 289 (69127)
11-25-2003 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Len Lisenbee
11-25-2003 12:21 AM


And where is the proof of these amazing discoveries, other than on Wyatt's crackpot site? Even other creationsist organizations know him for what he is.
What lab tested this "blood?"
Where are the medical journals that must have fallen all over themselves to research this information?
Ark Discovered! . . . Again? | Answers in Genesis
Letter from John Baumgardner regarding Noah's Ark on Mount Ararat
Acts and Facts Magazine | The Institute for Creation Research
http://www.ldolphin.org/wyatt.html
http://www.geocities.com/ronwyattsdiscoveries/noah2.htm
Apologetics research resources on religious cults and sects - Are Ron Wyatt's Archeological Claims Reliable?
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Len Lisenbee, posted 11-25-2003 12:21 AM Len Lisenbee has not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 65 of 289 (69128)
11-25-2003 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Len Lisenbee
11-25-2003 12:21 AM


Just for the heck of it, I'll slip out of the "admin-mode".
I believe that Ron Wyatt has been covered in one or more of the archeology topics. Try using this site's search tool. Or you may wish to start a new topic. Sounds like a "Misc." topic to me.
Also, I'm pretty sure that most of your message has nothing to do with the subject of the Exodus - so it does not belong in this topic.
Anyhow, welcome to the asylum.
Moose
[This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 11-25-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Len Lisenbee, posted 11-25-2003 12:21 AM Len Lisenbee has not replied

  
Ragnarok10
Member (Idle past 7424 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 66 of 289 (69132)
11-25-2003 1:34 AM


Yeah, I agree with asgara. IT's just like the one hoax with VISA cards where everyone thought VISA stood for 666.

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 67 of 289 (69214)
11-25-2003 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ConsequentAtheist
11-24-2003 8:46 PM


[quote]
quote:
Please name the diagnostic features that allows you to distinguish the West Semitic "Hyksos" from the West Semitic "Canaanite".
You're ignoring what I'm saying: We don't know where the Hyksos came from specifically. We know that they're a west Semitic people, but we don't know that they came from Canaan. They could have come from Arabia - which is not Canaan. They could have come from Syria - which is not Canaan. Etc.
If they're not natives of Canaan, then they're not Canaanites.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 11-24-2003 8:46 PM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Brian, posted 11-25-2003 1:36 PM Rei has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 68 of 289 (69221)
11-25-2003 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Rei
11-25-2003 1:05 PM


HI,
A quick observation.
Hyksos is not a term that is used to describe an ethnic group, you could, theoretically, have a Canaanite who was a 'Hyksos.'
John Van Seters writes that 'Hyksos' is not an ethnic term, to use it as such begs the whole question of an openminded consideration of the archaeological evidence. The use of the term 'Hyksos' designate a style or type has created great confusion in the study of the archaeology of the period. Consequently, it is best to restrict the use of the term to refer to the period of foreign rule in Egypt and to use archaeological nomenclature when dealing with archaeological data from Syria and Palestine. (Van Seters, The Hyksos Yale University Press, New Haven, 1966, page 3)
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Rei, posted 11-25-2003 1:05 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Rei, posted 11-25-2003 2:54 PM Brian has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 69 of 289 (69238)
11-25-2003 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Brian
11-25-2003 1:36 PM


quote:
Hyksos is not a term that is used to describe an ethnic group, you could, theoretically, have a Canaanite who was a 'Hyksos.'
Quite true. Or you could have no Canaanites be among the Hyksos. That is the problem.
The Hyksos are largely unknown - we don't know where they came from. They could have all been from Canaan. Some of them could have been from Canaan, some elsewhere. They could all be from Arabia, or another region outside of Canaan. They could have been a multinational regional under the command of another empire (such as the Hittites).
In short, we don't know. As a consequence, claiming that they're Canaanites, or that some of them are Canaanites, is distinctly premature. That's the point that I'm trying to make. Hopefully, future archaeological evidence will help clear up this issue.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Brian, posted 11-25-2003 1:36 PM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 11-25-2003 9:59 PM Rei has replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6239 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 70 of 289 (69312)
11-25-2003 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Rei
11-25-2003 2:54 PM


Quite true. Or you could have no Canaanites be among the Hyksos. That is the problem.
No, the problem is that you pretend to know what (if anything) a Canaanite is. So, let's put the Hyksos aside for the moment and deal with the more general question: What is the difference between "Canaanite" and "West Semitic"?
With that answer in mind, note that:
  1. there is no replacement layer where the encroaching Hyksos replaced the resident 'Canaanite, and
  2. the Hyksos had West Semitic names and spoke a West Semitic dialect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Rei, posted 11-25-2003 2:54 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Rei, posted 11-26-2003 12:07 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 289 (69328)
11-25-2003 10:35 PM


Wyatt has claimed to finding of some chariot wheels in the Gulf of Aqaba where he believes the Exodus crossing was, and to my knowledge nobody has successfully refuted his claims. I've seen pictures of one of these wheels. Wyatt's crossing site makes sense because of the topography on the entering side and a mountain with with the Biblical description of Sinai on the other side of the gulf as well as some pillars which the Bible speaks of. I've heard Wyatt lecture, showing his slides when he was alive and seen David Fassold's video of Noah's ark site which Wyatt also has explored on numerous expeditions, some with Fassold. Nobody, to my knowledge has actually refuted most of his claims, incliding Morris of ICR or Baumgartner. I'm not able to prove him totally credible, but tend to think he's gotten a bum rap from special interests who opposed him, including Morris and Baumgartner. I've communicated with John Morris about this via mail in the past and imo, John offered nothing to substantially refute Wyatt's claims.
[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 11-25-2003]

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 72 of 289 (69344)
11-26-2003 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Buzsaw
11-25-2003 10:35 PM


I guess you mean that nobody had presented ABSOLUTE proof of the falsity of Wyatt's claims. On the other hand the evidence for is rather weak too. We have testimony that Wyatt is a fraud. Many of his supposed "discoveries" have never been confirmed. All we have is a few pictures of SOME of his "discoveries".
We have testimony that the "chariot wheel" was planted. We have NO evidence that the "chariot wheel" is even Egyptian, let alone associated with the Exodus.
I suggest you read this statement - from a Christian site
William H. Shea comments on Ron Wyatt's So-called Archaeological Discoveries
"...I have seen the photographs of one of these chariot wheels and it does not look like an Egyptian chariot wheel. It looks more like an Assyrian chariot wheel of the ninth or eight century BC..."
Ron Wyatt Archaeological Research Fraud Documentation (WAR, W.A.R.)
"In 1999, a new book was put out with MUCH more proof Wyatt's "discoveries" were false. "Holy Relics or Revelation" by Russell R. Standish and Colin D. Standish of the Hartland Institute gives detailed and well-documented proofs that Wyatt's "discoveries" were bogus."
And please read the links, too.
NCCG.ORG, Articles & Sermons 66. A GREAT CHRISTIAN SCAM - Exposing Wyatt Archaeological Research
"...One of the individuals who I interviewed, who lost approximately 30,00 thousand dollars to Ron Wyatt, went to Israel with him, supposedly to see some of these sights and record them on film. An assignment editor of a major television station in Nasheville went with them. Not only did this individual not see any of these incredible discoveries, but his wife was told by one of Ron Wyatt's sons that the chariot wheels that Ron supposedly discovered in the Gulf of Aqaba were planted there by Ron. Mr. Wyatt gave this couple some coins which he supposedly found at the Ark of the Covenant site. Again, one of Wyatt's
sons informed the wife that Wyatt bought those coins."
http://www.tccsa.tc/articles/wyatt.html
"...However, be aware that those outside of the Wyatt camp have not been able to verify his data. Whenever trained archaeologists, scientists or other experts asked to examine the evidence, there were always reasons why he couldn’t produce it."
Even Answers in Genesis distrust Wyatt
Has the Ark of the Covenant Been Found? | Answers in Genesis
"Unfortunately, reputable Bible-believing archaeologists and other experts willing and capable of giving an objective assessment are never able to check out the claimed artifacts. There is generallya plausible-sounding story as to why that is impossible, or why the time is not right."
Here's some suspicious information - can you refute this ?
Or is it that anything that supports your beliefs - and only YOUR - beliefs is to be presumed true until disproven ?
"...Wyatt retrieved a wheel hub from the Red Sea and had
it dated, by Nassif Mohammed Hassan, a Cairo "director of Antiquities", to the Egyptian 18th Dynasty. Researching further and using devastating circular reasoning Wyatt decided that if this wheel, and others he claimed to have found on the seabed, were 18th Dynasty then that was the date of Exodus. Naturally for any of this to work you have to know already the site of the Red Sea crossing to look for the chariots in the first place. Sadly the wheel examined by Hassan is nowhere to be found - an astounding occurrence for such a valuable artifact - so an independent assessment is not possible. Further searches on Hassan himself also seem to be a dead end and the few sites that mention him merely parrot the little information supplied by the Wyatt site."
http://www.eighty.btinternet.co.uk/page60.htm

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Buzsaw, posted 11-25-2003 10:35 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 73 of 289 (69410)
11-26-2003 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by ConsequentAtheist
11-25-2003 9:59 PM


quote:
No, the problem is that you pretend to know what (if anything) a Canaanite is. So, let's put the Hyksos aside for the moment and deal with the more general question: What is the difference between "Canaanite" and "West Semitic"?
"West semitic" can include Arabia. Canaan is not part of Arabia. How many times do I need to mention this? Levant (as you mentioned before), also, includes more than just Canaan. Levant includes what is now Israel/Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria (Syria is typically not considered part of Canaan, as the land known as Canaan was generally cut off at the Jordan; there are exceptions, however).
quote:
With that answer in mind, note that:
there is no replacement layer where the encroaching Hyksos replaced the resident 'Canaanite, and
the Hyksos had West Semitic names and spoke a West Semitic dialect.
The main dialect differences in Canaan were between north and south, not east and west. I thought you supposedly were knowlegable on this subject?
The reason that the Hyksos are not believed to have come from an eastern semitic people is because of the lack of evidence of a conquest of western areas (such as Canaan and Arabia) in this time period. However, this also doesn't rule out a multinational force or a force allowed passage, caused due to pressures of the expanding Hittite empire to the east.
You have yet to state why you feel the Hyksos were from Canaan, as opposed to Arabia, or a force being pushed westward by the Hittites (either with the cooperation or, at least of the indifference of, the local Canaanite populations.) You also haven't proposed *why* the Hyksos would have launched such a mass migration. Did they abandon their own lands? What evidence exists that they did this? In short, do you have any evidence at all that supports your theory over any of the rivals? If not, why are you insistant that they have to be from Canaan (and solely from Canaan)?
If you disagree with the definition of Canaan that I am using, please propose your own rival definition. Do you include what is present-day Syria and Jordan, or even Arabia in yours, for example? (if so, I have some issues to take with that...)
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 11-25-2003 9:59 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 74 of 289 (69432)
11-26-2003 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Buzsaw
11-25-2003 10:35 PM


Well Buz? Have you read over the Christian sites which think Wyatt was a fraud?
What do you conclude from that information?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Brian, posted 11-26-2003 3:51 PM NosyNed has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 75 of 289 (69433)
11-26-2003 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by NosyNed
11-26-2003 3:23 PM


Ron Wyatt's legacy lives on, his videos and books still get sold through wyattmuseums!
I beieve that it is a crime to mislead people in this way.
I had an e-mail discussion with president of wyatt archaeology Richard Rives concerning the finds at the Red Sea.
I wish I could post his e-mail responses, the guy knows less about archaeology than Wyatt did.
Brian

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by NosyNed, posted 11-26-2003 3:23 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
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