Who Made God?

The evidence is what the Bible itself says, just as written, just as understood by Bible believers down the centuries. It takes effort to undo that evidence and make something else out of it. You actually believe the "experts" who SUBJECTIVELY decide how to date the Bible. You deserve what you'll get for that.

Just one comment: Other religions are NOT like the Bible. The Biblie is mostly historical narrative about real people who know the living God, the other religions are mostly teachings given by certain teachers. The miracle stories in the Bible all add up to demonstrating the gift of the Messiah. Miracle stories in other religions have no organized purpose.I don't know if I'll come back to try to answer your post beyond this.

The evidence I'm talking about is the evidence given in the Bible. There's tons of it.

I may have mistaken what you were saying, sorry about that. You just sounded like all the others who like to see the Bible torn to shreds. And I think most of the time you do anyway. But I don't get what point you are making about when Mark was written anyway. There is a traditional understanding about the authorship of all the books that is quite sufficient. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

There is no evidence for the resurrection WITHOUT an inerrant Bible.

"Traditional understanding"???How more 'traditional' can you get than the early church leaders? Mind you , that does not mean they are right, but that is the tradition.Now, I am not interested in 'tearing up' what the bible says.... although I do think that the fundamentalist interpretation is not supported by the biblicial text.. but from a purely academic point of view, my statement is correct. ... the evidence shows that the various texts were written between 65 (probably after 70) to as late as the early second century when it comes to both John and Luke.

Why is that? Are you saying that if whoever wrote about a world wide flood in which one family housed the only remaining life on earth in pairs didn't happen then what the early Christians wrote about Jesus hundreds of years later can't be right either. That makes no sense at all. Are you saying that if God didn't order the mass killing of the Canaanites, or the stoning to death of difficult youth, prostitutes etc then we can't believe Christ's message of loving our enemies?Christianity not only doesn't need an inerrant Bible, or at least the way you understand it, but in reality it nearly ceases to be Christianity because it no longer represents the God that we see incarnate in Jesus.

Yes I am saying that if you throw out any of the Old Testament you might as well throw out the New as well because it depends on the Old.GDR, believers in an inerrant Bible have no problem reconciling the Old Testament God with Jesus, it's UNBELIEVERS who make that distinction. If you are saved, great, but it must be by the skin of your teeth because you deny so much of the testimony of the Bible, which the New Testament treats as God's word in toto, referring to it without distinction as "the scriptures," and Jesus Himself quoted from all the books, and He also said to the disciples on the road to Emmaus that the entire Old Testament ("the scriptures") referred to Himself.And even if you can somehow make yourself believe in bits and pieces of the testimony and throw out the rest, your example to others may not create the same effect but just convince them that if the Bible isn't true in one place there's no reason to trust it where you trust it either. And I'd have to say their view makes sense. Picking and choosing from the Bible is a deadly error.It's your own spiritual weakness that leads you to divide the Bible to suit yourself, it is not a spiritual strength, and it is a terrible example to others.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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The evidence is what the Bible itself says, just as written, just as understood by Bible believers down the centuries.

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Nobody with any sense assumes that any old document must be taken as absolutely literally true. If you want to use the Bible as evidence in THAT way, you need rather more than "my traditions say so!". Even worse, you actually want to let your traditions overrule the Bible.

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It takes effort to undo that evidence and make something else out of it.

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Well no, it doesn't. It takes a lot of effort to find the actual truth of things, but disbelieving your traditions takes very little effort at all. They're only traditions, after all.

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You actually believe the "experts" who SUBJECTIVELY decide how to date the Bible. You deserve what you'll get for that.

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In Christian belief NOT worshipping false Gods doesn't get any punishment. It's people like you who ought to worry.

Right. Well, people will believe either your tradition or mine then. I can only hope some of them make the right choice.
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Calling the Bible "any old document" is such proof of your failure of judgment it takes the breath away. But then I do know that only believers can judge any of this rightly because it takes the Holy Spirit to open it to us. I used to think, before I became a believer, that there was such a thing as rationality and that people were able to make accurate judgments, or some were. I still must believe something along those lines, unfortunately. even to be trying to persuade anyone here. Most of you seem to have gone beyond the point of no return so that even if thousands prayed for you there's no hope you'd ever wake up. I would like to believe I'm wrong and that God may yet have mercy on you.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Right. Well, people will believe either your tradition or mine then. I can only hope some of them make the right choice.

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I'm not blindly following tradition. The choice is between blind belief in men - your position - and trying to find the truth - mine.

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Calling the Bible "any old document" is such proof of your failure of judgment it takes the breath away. But then I do know that only believers can judge any of this rightly because it takes the Holy Spirit to open it to us.

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If your "evidence" is only truly available to people who already believe it isn't much good as evidence. But really all you're doing is labelling your own prejudices "the Holy spirit"

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I used to think, before I became a believer, that there was such a thing as rationality and that people were able to make accurate judgments, or some were.

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Of course that IS true, but you hate it. In this very thread you object very strongly to the idea of rationally evaluating the Bible. Even something as simple as comparing Matthew and Luke/Acts is going too far for you.

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I still must believe something along those lines, unfortunately. even to be trying to persuade anyone here. Most of you seem to have gone beyond the point of no return so that even if thousands prayed for you there's no hope you'd ever wake up. I would like to believe I'm wrong and that God may yet have mercy on you.

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Pray for yourself. At BEST you are driving people away from your religion with your pride and your arrogance and your hate.Trying to bully people into agreeing with you - when they know more than you and have good reasons for their beliefs - will not work.

As I said. People will believe either your tradition or mine then. I can only hope some of them make the right choice.

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As I said. People will believe either your tradition or mine then. I can only hope some of them make the right choice.

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Repeating an error doesn't make it right. The fact that you can't even admit that there are alternatives to following tradition shows just how far from the truth you are.

But it is you who are far from the truth because the truth was given by God and you are instead trusting in your own fallible mind.There ARE no alternatives. I'm being very honest about that. The Bible is the standard, if you discredit it by the "experts" you are only deceiving yourself about the supposed "evidence." It's simply an elaborate deception.God said to "Believe," believe the testimony of His word and His witnesses, and I've argued here that the Bible gives all the evidence you should need to believe it, and if you don't, it's not I speaking against you, as you know very well -- it is God Himself through His word that says you MUST believe. Everybody would rather hear something else but this is what God says, it's not something I'm making up.When you believe then you come to know as well. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. That's something you can only understand WHEN you have faith, not before.That's what the word says, not I.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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But it is you who are far from the truth because the truth was given by God and you are instead trusting in your own fallible mind.

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As you rely on your mind, and your pride makes your mind even more fallible than mine.

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There ARE no alternatives. I'm being very honest about that. The Bible is the standard, if you discredit it by the "experts" you are only deceiving yourself about the supposed "evidence." It's simply an elaborate deception.

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So it is impossible to read and study the Bible for yourself ? We must submit to the dictates of your theological masters to tell us what it says ? It is impossible to study the word and see how it matches up to your master's claims ? How can you claim to be honest when you say things which even you can't truly believe?

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God said to "Believe," believe the testimony of His word and His witnesses, and I've argued here that the Bible gives all the evidence you should need to believe it, and if you don't, it's not I speaking against you, as you know very well -- it is God Himself through His word that says you MUST believe. Everybody would rather hear something else but this is what God says, it's not something I'm making up.

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Putting words into God's mouth isn't an argument. The reality is that the evidence is poor and you don't even understand it enough to make a real argument. If you could actually show that it was God speaking you might actually have a case, but you can't and you don't.