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Author Topic:   How can we regulate guns ... ?
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 946 of 955 (689428)
01-30-2013 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 945 by NoNukes
01-30-2013 4:25 PM


Re: Polls re regulations of guns?
Under what circumstances (other than the first half of your statement) would it be illegal to sell a car to a criminal?
I was under the impression that this would be aiding and abetting, but I could be wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 945 by NoNukes, posted 01-30-2013 4:25 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 947 of 955 (689431)
01-30-2013 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 943 by AZPaul3
01-30-2013 3:30 PM


Re: Polls re regulations of guns?
You might be right but, I'm not so sure. "Accessory After The Fact" is a felony (jail time) for someone who had no direct involvement in the commission of the crime in question. That's probably a bit of a stretch but stranger things have happened.
The mental state of an accessory is beyond mere negligence. A person guilty of being an accessory has intentionally aided a perpetrator. On the other hand, a person whose guns were stolen due to no negligence or intent on his own part has had the intent only to commit lawful acts.
Also, I'm not sure the courts would object to the doctrine that a stolen/missing handgun used in a crime would show the last legal owner's culpable negligence a priori unless it was reported to authorities in a timely manner.
Perhaps, but that's not what was proposed.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 943 by AZPaul3, posted 01-30-2013 3:30 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 948 by AZPaul3, posted 01-30-2013 5:30 PM NoNukes has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 948 of 955 (689433)
01-30-2013 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 947 by NoNukes
01-30-2013 4:35 PM


Re: Polls re regulations of guns?
On the other hand, a person whose guns were stolen due to no negligence or intent on his own part has had the intent only to commit lawful acts.
I agree, that is why a reporting requirement would be necessary. The reasonable gun owner (the vast majority of all owners) already takes adequate measure to secure his firearms because they acknowledge the additional dangers gun ownership presents and the attached responsibility that goes with ownership. Should the gun get stolen or go missing the reasonable owner would report as required and thus would be legally free of consequence.
The negligent owner who does not secure his weapons or report stolen/missing knows, using the "reasonable man" doctrine, that his guns may very well be used in a crime and he did nothing to prevent this. That can, in such a crafted law, be considered culpable intentional negligence.
In such a law this probably would not be considered as an "accessory" as used in existing law subject to the same penalty as the principal perpetrator, but a felony class offense could be attached.
I think this whole discussion is interesting but ultimately futile. If such a bill were presented anywhere the NRA would pull out its checkbook and buy whoever was necessary to defeat the attempt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 947 by NoNukes, posted 01-30-2013 4:35 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 951 by xongsmith, posted 01-30-2013 6:30 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 953 by NoNukes, posted 01-31-2013 12:04 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2600
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 949 of 955 (689438)
01-30-2013 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 943 by AZPaul3
01-30-2013 3:30 PM


Re: Polls re regulations of guns?
AZPaul writes:
The combination of these two could result in a gun owner doing time if his gun was used in a crime.
NO SHIT!
IF you own a gun and it gets out there, FUCK YOU. You do the time AND you go to court to face the parents of the dead. You are an accomplice just as much as the getaway driver.
Simple. You get robbed of your weapons, you get JAIL, baby.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

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 Message 943 by AZPaul3, posted 01-30-2013 3:30 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2600
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 950 of 955 (689439)
01-30-2013 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 944 by Taq
01-30-2013 3:50 PM


Re: Polls re regulations of guns?
Taq tries:
We can use cars as an analogy. If a car dealer sells a car without knowing that it will be used in a crime then they are not held liable.
Would everyone here PLEASE, PLEASE stop using cars for any analogies here. They don't work, never have, and never will.
Edited by xongsmith, : spelled t a q

- xongsmith, 5.7d

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 Message 944 by Taq, posted 01-30-2013 3:50 PM Taq has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2600
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 951 of 955 (689440)
01-30-2013 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 948 by AZPaul3
01-30-2013 5:30 PM


Re: Polls re regulations of guns?
AZPaul muses:
I think this whole discussion is interesting but ultimately futile. If such a bill were presented anywhere the NRA would pull out its checkbook and buy whoever was necessary to defeat the attempt.
Again, I proposed that the NRA be given power of background checking. Give them more power to enforce the law and they will gladly take on the responsibility. The ATF and the FBI have no credibility anymore in this country. I want to have something done. I am conceding territory I would rather not concede, BUT I want something done.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 948 by AZPaul3, posted 01-30-2013 5:30 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 952 by AZPaul3, posted 01-30-2013 8:25 PM xongsmith has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 952 of 955 (689456)
01-30-2013 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 951 by xongsmith
01-30-2013 6:30 PM


Re: Polls re regulations of guns?
I am conceding territory I would rather not concede, BUT I want something done.
I understand, xongsmith.
I empathize.
I feel your pain.
But putting the loonies in charge of the loonybin?
You're much too radical for me. My head hurts. I think I'll go have a lie down somewhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 951 by xongsmith, posted 01-30-2013 6:30 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 955 by xongsmith, posted 01-31-2013 3:29 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 953 of 955 (689482)
01-31-2013 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 948 by AZPaul3
01-30-2013 5:30 PM


Re: Polls re regulations of guns?
intentional negligence
I'm generally with you, but 'intentional negligence' is an oxymoron. But yeah, I think a law based on your proposal could avoid constitutional problems. But xongsmith has confirmed that he wants something different.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 948 by AZPaul3, posted 01-30-2013 5:30 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 954 by AZPaul3, posted 01-31-2013 12:45 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 954 of 955 (689484)
01-31-2013 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 953 by NoNukes
01-31-2013 12:04 AM


Re: Polls re regulations of guns?
but 'intentional negligence' is an oxymoron.
OK, this is from memory and at my age it is somewhat suspect.
Intentional negligence is not contradictory in law. Negligence is a failure to exercise some degree of care the law may require for the protection of others. It can be intentional. Example, locking fire escape doors to keep employees in the shop. Intentional failure to provide required egress in case of fire. Negligence. Criminal, misdemeanor or felony depending on severity of the injury.
[edit = hours later]
Memory, memory, how fleeting is thy life.
In most statues this is termed Gross Negligence.
[/edit]
Versus unintentional negligence where a usual standard of care was not met through oversight or carelessness. The binding on your rented ski failed and you broke your leg. Usually a tort action.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 953 by NoNukes, posted 01-31-2013 12:04 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2600
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 955 of 955 (689495)
01-31-2013 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 952 by AZPaul3
01-30-2013 8:25 PM


Re: Polls re regulations of guns?
Thank you AZPaul3.
The very reason I would put forth this outrageous idea is that GUNS are not like anything else. This country is hurting so bad from guns. Let's put the hammer down on the lax gun owners....the very ones who are not yet fully appreciating the awesome responsibility of owning a gun.
As ICANT would put it, "God bless".
As I would steal from another writer, "May we all be good ancestors"

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 952 by AZPaul3, posted 01-30-2013 8:25 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
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