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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 1411 of 5179 (688505)
01-23-2013 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1409 by Heathen
01-23-2013 2:05 AM


Re: Constitution
I see the Constitution as rule by law which SHOULD protect us against whimsical tyrannical agenda-driven Presidents and Supreme Courts, if they were true to its inspiration. It doesn't have to be perfect for that, it merely has to be respected AS law, and its own measures for changing it as the country acquires new perspectives ought to be respected and followed too. It's interesting that along with this vicious propaganda campaign against the second amendment there is now building up a similar propaganda campaign to denigrate the Constitution, as "antiquated," even as "evil." Value terms, not rational assessment, just emotional manipulation. Propaganda is never recognized for what it is, merely somebody's agenda put into a form that can sway opinion, using belittling judgmental terms. Demagoguery, manipulation.
Thinking about that cartoon that RAZD posted, with this evil looking fat cat "gun industry" holding as a puppet an even more evil looking "NRA" on his lap, who holds a stupid looking "Congress" on HIS lap. THAT's propaganda.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1409 by Heathen, posted 01-23-2013 2:05 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1413 by Heathen, posted 01-23-2013 7:55 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 1414 by Heathen, posted 01-23-2013 8:16 AM Faith has not replied

saab93f
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(1)
Message 1412 of 5179 (688506)
01-23-2013 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1410 by Faith
01-23-2013 3:20 AM


Re: The Un-American Mind
But as for the idea that "a gun-related tragedy can be countered with something else" I regard that as self-deception. You can't "counter" such an event by refusing to get upset by it or get carried away with ideas of self-defense, you are merely making yourself feel better, calming your emotions. If no more tragedies occur, fine, but there is no cause and effect relation between your attitude and that fact.
But just out of curiosity, do you think Norway is any better prepared to handle it if another such incident DID occur? Why or why not, and what preparations have they made?
It is not self-deception if you shout out loud that the ideals we hold are stronger than a couple of lunatics. The Al-Qaida wanted to paralyze the west by invoking fear (some of it justified, admittably) and thus making lives at the airports much more difficult than before.
Norway has improved their ability to read the quiet signals that might telltale an attack. They have also improved their ability to get the information flow between the authorities faster. What they havent done is arm the youth camps and if Ive understood correctly are not going to.
The lonely wolves are always more difficult to spot than groups but to understand better the seemingly separate issues might just be enough. The most important point however is to have enough qualified personnel at schools to listen and observe so the possible "mental cases" are noticed early on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1410 by Faith, posted 01-23-2013 3:20 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1422 by Faith, posted 01-23-2013 8:44 PM saab93f has not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


(1)
Message 1413 of 5179 (688507)
01-23-2013 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1411 by Faith
01-23-2013 3:26 AM


Re: Constitution
Are there any currently existing amendments to the constitution that you disagree with?
Any that you may have thought were a "vicious propaganda campaign" against the previous incarnation of the constitution?
there is now building up a similar propaganda campaign to denigrate the Constitution, as "antiquated," even as "evil."
Is this not the very reason that the current "Amendments" exist? That previously the constitution was not considered effective or relevant in certain areas?
this process of amendments should surely continue to best serve and suit the society the constitution is suppose to serve.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1411 by Faith, posted 01-23-2013 3:26 AM Faith has not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


(1)
Message 1414 of 5179 (688508)
01-23-2013 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1411 by Faith
01-23-2013 3:26 AM


Re: Constitution
merely somebody's agenda put into a form that can sway opinion, using belittling judgmental terms.
seems to me to be an accurate description of organised religion..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1411 by Faith, posted 01-23-2013 3:26 AM Faith has not replied

xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(1)
Message 1415 of 5179 (688526)
01-23-2013 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1398 by Faith
01-22-2013 6:05 PM


Re: Losing the Second Amendment
God has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1398 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 6:05 PM Faith has not replied

xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(2)
Message 1416 of 5179 (688531)
01-23-2013 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1401 by Faith
01-22-2013 6:27 PM


Faith says:
You can't turn the other cheek on behalf of children who are threatened by homicidal maniacs and that is not what the Lord's teaching means.
Says you.
Even Jesus, himself, has been recorded in the Bible as being so callous as to not permit one of his brand new Followers even the time of day to bury his own dead father.
All you do is cherry-pick and paraphrase when it suits your mindset, just like I did right there. Did you see that? It is a callow technique. Quote-mining is a form of lying. The two of us should stop this right now.
You seem to be riding in on some tragically broken horse and twisting everything calmly & carefully explained to you. This may be because you have been brought up in a way that has blinded you from seeing and instead sucked you into embracing perhaps the biggest charlatan game in all of human history. Twisted & fed indeed. While I may indeed fear for your quality of life as it unfolds, you are the one who is the most frightened here and in need. We (meaning most, if not all, of us here in EvC) want you to be well and get better.
ForEverYoung, for as much as he has described his own excruciating troubles in his own vivid words here, has got nothing on you, babe. And he needs our love as well. You need to establish some kind of EvC street cred, 'cause right now you aint got none. You can do it. I know you can. It is a personal prayer of mine. Talk to ForEverYoung off line maybe. Probably better to not talk to me - for deep in my heart I know there is no help I can bring. Everything changes, everything passes...

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1401 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 6:27 PM Faith has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(4)
Message 1417 of 5179 (688550)
01-23-2013 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1403 by Faith
01-22-2013 8:30 PM


Re: Losing the Second Amendment
As I already very clearly said, we KNOW what laws are in accord with God's will by knowing what His word says and if we don't we can read it and find out.
The Bible is the writings men like any other. Any laws contained in the Bible are man's laws because it is men who wrote them. If there is a God and he does have laws that he doesn't want broken then he can appear in Congress like any other lawmaker and present his case.
The Supreme Court can and has violated the Constitution in the name of the Constitution.
All you are doing is complaining because the Constitution doesn't say what you want it to say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1403 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 8:30 PM Faith has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(6)
Message 1418 of 5179 (688561)
01-23-2013 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1407 by Faith
01-23-2013 12:31 AM


Re: Some cases where guns would have helped and where they did help
Hi Faith
Faith writes:
I went through all this with myself years ago and for a while tended toward pacifism, but came to the conclusion that the point of being armed is really more for protection of others including your own family than it is literally for SELF-defense. And after I'd read up on the history that led up to the second amendment (which I posted on this thread more than once, I think #57 was the first) I concluded that it's a necessity in a fallen world. Yes, Christians trust Christ to protect us but we can't just stand by and do nothing while others are hurt or killed. And besides, how many Americans (or Canadians) are serious Christians? Should they all be required to trust God?
My point was that you are putting yourself and your family at greater risk by having guns in the house. In that last post I simply went to the CNN web site and found 3 current instances of death and/or injury because of the use of guns.
You make the point of living in a fallen world. Fine, the point of Christ’s message was that His followers were not to acquiesce to the fallen world but were to stand against it. Paul describes the weapons that we are to use in Ephesians 6.
quote:
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints. 19 Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.
You then quoted Luke 22:
quote:
35 Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. 36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." 38 The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied.
Look at what Jesus is saying. This is part of Christ’s whole message. He says to them when he sent them out earlier without even purse, bag or sandals that they had no need of anything else. Then he says to them, that now, in spite of that you still don’t get it and you want to arm yourselves in preparation for going up against the Romans in Jerusalem. His point of view as always was that you don’t fight evil with more evil. In the end He closes off the conversation by saying It is enough. It isn’t that two swords are enough, he is saying that is the end of the conversation. Once again, that is confirmed when they are dealing with the Romans and Peter draws his sword he tells Peter that those who live by the sword die by the sword.
Frankly, IMHO, according to the scriptures, the stand that you and others take on guns makes you part of the problem that Christ taught about instead of being part of the solution, which is the same message that Jesus gave to the disciples concerning their desire to be armed with swords.
Faith writes:
You say you found no stories of guns saving anybody but there are such stories out there. Earlier in this thread I posted the video of the man with a concealed carry handgun who stopped a burglary by two men, one with a gun and one with a baseball bat, which you can see HERE.
I have no doubt that there are instances where lives that were threatened have been saved because someone had a gun by the bed or in their glove compartment, and you have come up with some examples. However, how about this for a challenge? I’ll take the one instance that we just saw in Connecticut. A young man had access to the guns in the house because his mother felt like you do. I’ll take this one instance that cost 27 lives, most of them very young children, plus numerous injuries. Can you find me using as many incidents as you want where 27 lives have been spared because of private citizens arming themselves with guns?
This woman, by holding your views on guns cost not only her own life, the life of her son but the death of 25 others. Her arming herself has brought unbelievable heartache to hundreds.
Many crimes involving guns are committed with guns that have been stolen out of people’s homes or cars. Here is a statement that is part of this report.
quote:
It’s very difficult to say what percentage of guns used in crimes have been stolen, said Randy Beach, a special agent in charge for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Pensacola, where a Gun Crime Response Team was formed in July.
Beach was pretty confident estimating that nearly half of the guns used in gun crimes have been stolen.
By having a gun in your home you are putting yourself and others at greater risk than they would be otherwise and in doing that you are doing it in opposition to the Scriptures.
Edited by GDR, : typo

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1407 by Faith, posted 01-23-2013 12:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1423 by Faith, posted 01-23-2013 10:52 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 1432 by GDR, posted 01-24-2013 11:25 AM GDR has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(3)
Message 1419 of 5179 (688570)
01-23-2013 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1400 by Faith
01-22-2013 6:21 PM


Re: The Un-American Mind
Faith writes:
Protecting schools is one subject, God's judgments are another.
Yet it was you, not I, that linked God's judgement to gun controls.
Faith writes:
This is a fallen world and nothing we do is going to prevent all forms of evil....
In a world in which social problems and the violence that accompanies those problems are present, in a world where humans are prone to emotional and psychological imperfections, is a proliferation of deadly weapons going to help the situation of exacerbate the situation?
Straggler writes:
Has it ever occurred to you that God might prefer us to construct societies in which it is deemed neither necessary nor desirable for kindergarten teachers to undergo 'shoot to kill' training?
Faith writes:
You can't just make up what God wants and there is no need to because He's told us clearly in His word what He wants and how He operates, and what He wants is that we construct our nations according to His laws and especially His gospel of salvation in Christ. This is a fallen world and nothing we do is going to prevent all forms of evil but if a nation determines to obey God He'll take care of the evils for us. And that includes being sure we have an intact second amendment for protection.
Faith - Honestly - Does God want us to create societies where infant school teachers need 'shoot to kill' training?
Can you honestly say that God is absolutely fine with a society where infant schools require armed teachers but that any form of gun control will invoke, or be an indication of, his merciless displeasure?
Faith writes:
I dunno, Straggler, you just continue to mix up what I said about having armed protection at schools with what I said about God's judgments and sorting it out is beyond me right now. Also a bunch of stuff you impute to me about global this and tyrannical that which since you don't quote me is just too hard to figure out.
You want quotes? Here:
Faith espousing the notion that if gun controls are implemented in America tyrannical oppression will sweep the free world.
quote:
"Propaganda of this sort has been the tool used against many people to get them disarmed and hated and set them up for something, genocide, inability to defend against a foreign invasion, whatever."
"And again, the propaganda campaign against the most reasonable way to deal with the situation is so nasty it's clear somebody wants America disarmed."
"That's the perennial problem, nobody expects a Hitler to show up in this world so nobody does anything to be prepared and yet somehow it happens, out of the blue. Some of us see the world shaping up for the next one. Too bad it's only some of us."
"THEREFORE it looks like somebody just wants the good guys disarmed."
"So far you haven't felt the effects of the disarming of you Brits although some have felt them and the rest of you scoff at them."
"May I suggest that things may not stay so rosy with the EU, AND that if it weren't for America still being armed you wouldn't be so safe in your current disarmed state either."
Faith on the relationship between God's mercy and any compromise on the second amendment:
quote:
"The nation is under God's judgment, has been for quite some time. 9/11 was a warning judgment, but few recognized it and the few were vilified by others, which of course only means worse judgment is going to come."
"I've been watching God's judgments fall on the nation for at least a decade now and wondering when it's going to be so devastating we won't be able to recover at all."
"But if the Second Amendment really goes under I'll consider that to be the sign He isn't going to have mercy on us at all, we're past that and can only expect worse judgments to come."
"Meanwhile it can't hurt to argue for the Second Amendment, because if that falls, then I would KNOW that God isn't going to have mercy on us, it's all over for sure."
Faith on the other dire consequences of gun controls:
quote:
"When guns are not available to private citizens for self defense and defense in such situations as these shootings, soon the whole population is at the mercy of criminal and government powers, standing armies and so on."
"As well of course of the likelihood of criminal attacks both on your own home and in public and in the schools and all the rest of it, which do seem to increase where there is the least gun control and would certainly do so if guns were completely taken away from the good guys."
"I stated the Second Amendment principle, I support the principle, there's a reason we have the Second Amendment, to give us security against ALL KINDS OF TYRANNIES AND PREDATIONS, including CRIME, house invasion, government roundups, the works."
"There ARE evil people in this world. And it isn't us."
Faith putting forward the standard culture-of-fear response of demanding ever more guns and guards:
quote:
"That's better than nothing but armed teachers is the best. The surprise factor, a potential shooter not knowing who has a gun, can have a strong deterrent effect for starters. Mall shops should also have armed personnel, so should any business for that matter. We have the Second Amendment for this purpose, to defend ourselves, it's long past time we started putting it to the use for which it was intended."
"The solution is to have some kind of security in place to stop such things from happening, whether that means allowing the arming of personnel or hiring security guards."
"BUT more of the citizen owners of guns need to be packing them, especially these days."
"I still think a teacher or two from each school should have a gun."
"Under OUR circumstances, therefore, having a few concealed-carry permits among the teaching staff of our schools looks to me to be sensible and possible."
"And here's that picture again I think says so much, a Mom or a teacher toting a rifle in Israel in the presence of school children. That ought to show that it's not dangerous to have firearms around children."
You may think these views entirely unremarkable. But I can assure you that in the wider world the views you are espousing here are considered extreme to the point of disturbed.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1400 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 6:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1421 by Faith, posted 01-23-2013 8:33 PM Straggler has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 1420 of 5179 (688572)
01-23-2013 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1396 by Faith
01-22-2013 4:58 PM


Re: Losing the Second Amendment
In this case I leave the determination of the situation to the state agencies, governors, sheriffs and so on who oppose what he did.
Whereas the Constitution leaves that up to the Supreme Court.
But I'm sure there are others here who know more about it than I do. People on my side of the issues I mean.
* derisive laughter *

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1396 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 4:58 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 1421 of 5179 (688603)
01-23-2013 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1419 by Straggler
01-23-2013 4:28 PM


Re: The Un-American Mind
Protecting schools is one subject, God's judgments are another.
Yet it was you, not I, that linked God's judgement to gun controls.
BUT NOT THE WAY YOU ARE MISREADING IT. You've actually twisted it completely backwards. YOU talk about any form of gun defense as some kind of hideous horror show, WHICH I'VE TOTALLY REJECTED AS YOUR OWN FANTASY PARANOIA PROPAGANDA AGAINST GUNS, but now you are going on as if your own paranoid fantasy of horrors is the same thing as the judgment of God I said I would expect if our gun rights are TAKEN AWAY FROM US, the OPPOSITE of your way of putting it all together -- having guns is God's blessing in MY scenario, but you are confusing your own horror picture of guns with what I said about my taking it as God's judgment if we LOSE them. Are you INTENTIONALLY distorting what I'm saying for some reason, or is your mind just totally shot?
Faith writes:
This is a fallen world and nothing we do is going to prevent all forms of evil....
In a world in which social problems and the violence that accompanies those problems are present, in a world where humans are prone to emotional and psychological imperfections, is a proliferation of deadly weapons going to help the situation of exacerbate the situation?
TAKING AWAY GUNS FROM CITIZENS IS THE MOST HIDEOUS EVIL YOU COULD POSSIBLY SUPPORT BECAUSE IT WOULD LEAVE THE NATION UNPROTECTED FROM ALL KINDS OF HORRORS THAT YOU AREN'T WILLING EVEN TO CONSIDER. ALL THIS ABOUT THE DANGERS OF GUNS THEMSELVES IS A PROPAGANDA CAMPAIGN TO DISARM US AND MISSES THE ESSENTIAL BASIC POINT OF THE NEED TO BE ARMED. I'M ALL FOR WHATEVER MEASURES ARE NECESSARY TO REDUCE GUN DANGERS BUT YOU ARE ATTACKING THE VERY HEART OF THE NEED FOR GUNS AS SELF PROTECTION AND PROTECTION OF THE NATION. I don't think you have any idea where your opinions come from either, you're just one of the mouthpieces as so many here are for a propaganda campaign whose ultimate goal is to destroy the US.
Straggler writes:
Has it ever occurred to you that God might prefer us to construct societies in which it is deemed neither necessary nor desirable for kindergarten teachers to undergo 'shoot to kill' training?
Faith writes:
You can't just make up what God wants and there is no need to because He's told us clearly in His word what He wants and how He operates, and what He wants is that we construct our nations according to His laws and especially His gospel of salvation in Christ. This is a fallen world and nothing we do is going to prevent all forms of evil but if a nation determines to obey God He'll take care of the evils for us. And that includes being sure we have an intact second amendment for protection.
Faith - Honestly - Does God want us to create societies where infant school teachers need 'shoot to kill' training?
What kind of nonsensical reasoning is this you are indulging in? GUNS DON'T CREATE THIS PROBLEM THAT YOU KEEP TRYING TO CLAIM THEY DO, the problem is created by an apparent increase in violence and these crazed murders, and your insane solution is to TAKE AWAY the ONLY methods that could possibly work toward stopping it. CITIZEN OWNERSHIP OF GUNS ISN'T CAUSING THE SCHOOL PROBLEM BUT IT MIGHT HELP PREVENT IT IF THE LAWS WEREN'T PRESENTLY MAKING IT SO DIFFICULT.
Keep in mind that Americans have ALWAYS possessed guns as promised us in the second amendment. Always. My father had guns (he came from a Canadian homesteaded farm surrounded by wilderness where they were needed for many reasons) and he taught my brothers to use them. Nobody thought anything of it. LOTS of Americans have always had guns for many reasons and took them for granted.
For a long time the nation has been peaceful enough that their necessity in terms of the second amendment has been more academic than real in anybody's experience.
But NOW with real threats to public safety INCREASING, THIS is when you want to DEPRIVE us of the very use for which they were originally intended. AND YOU DON'T SEE THE INSANITY in this way the attacks on the second amendment always come up exactly when its need is MOST obvious.
Can you honestly say that God is absolutely fine with a society where infant schools require armed teachers but that any form of gun control will invoke, or be an indication of, his merciless displeasure?
Here's this bizarre logic again. WHO'S "creating" this society you are talking about? NOT THE GUN OWNERS, but you are blaming the problem on us when we would be the solution to it. If violence increases to the point of being a general public threat, THAT'S WHEN WE NEED OUR SECOND AMENDMENT PROTECTION, but you people are so weirdly propagandized or mentally twisted you keep getting it backwards.
Faith writes:
I dunno, Straggler, you just continue to mix up what I said about having armed protection at schools with what I said about God's judgments and sorting it out is beyond me right now. Also a bunch of stuff you impute to me about global this and tyrannical that which since you don't quote me is just too hard to figure out.
You want quotes? Here:
Faith espousing the notion that if gun controls are implemented in America tyrannical oppression will sweep the free world.
"Propaganda of this sort has been the tool used against many people to get them disarmed and hated and set them up for something, genocide, inability to defend against a foreign invasion, whatever."
"And again, the propaganda campaign against the most reasonable way to deal with the situation is so nasty it's clear somebody wants America disarmed."
First, you quote me but now your own distortions aren't on the table and that's still confusing. But I'm talking about TOTAL LOSS OF OUR GUN RIGHTS, I'm talking about BEING DISARMED, not just about gun controls, though I do see most of that as a step toward taking them away altogether. Second, I'm arguing FOR having guns to protect the nation while you are trying to equate having guns with the dangers to the country, the exact opposite of what I said, mixing up your own opposite horror fantasy with what I said just as I said above you do.
"That's the perennial problem, nobody expects a Hitler to show up in this world so nobody does anything to be prepared and yet somehow it happens, out of the blue. Some of us see the world shaping up for the next one. Too bad it's only some of us."
"THEREFORE it looks like somebody just wants the good guys disarmed."
"So far you haven't felt the effects of the disarming of you Brits although some have felt them and the rest of you scoff at them."
"May I suggest that things may not stay so rosy with the EU, AND that if it weren't for America still being armed you wouldn't be so safe in your current disarmed state either."
Yes, I said all that, using the word DISARMED, which I see as the end result of all these fanatical gun control alarms that are always raised when one of these murders occurs. Gun controls aren't going to bring it about right away, but I'm talking about the END RESULT I see down the road as the REAL agenda of those who keep up the propaganda against guns.
Do you actually think America doesn't have enemies who would like to see us disappear altogether? And you guys too. I don't think you have a clue about how your own wellbeing might depend on America's being armed.
Stop equating what I've said about this with its opposite that comes from your own imagination about the dangers of guns themselves.
Faith on the relationship between God's mercy and any compromise on the second amendment:
[FIRST I DID NOT SAY A THING ABOUT "ANY COMPROMISE" DID I? YOU'VE ADDED YOUR OWN TWIST TO IT]
"The nation is under God's judgment, has been for quite some time. 9/11 was a warning judgment, but few recognized it and the few were vilified by others, which of course only means worse judgment is going to come."
"I've been watching God's judgments fall on the nation for at least a decade now and wondering when it's going to be so devastating we won't be able to recover at all."
"But if the Second Amendment really goes under I'll consider that to be the sign He isn't going to have mercy on us at all, we're past that and can only expect worse judgments to come."
"Meanwhile it can't hurt to argue for the Second Amendment, because if that falls, then I would KNOW that God isn't going to have mercy on us, it's all over for sure."
Yes I said all that but how you characterized it was a twisting of it, and now of course that context is lost and my memory isn't all that great. Now you're quoting it but you misread it before and got it all confused with your own weird ideas and I'm sure you're now misreading it as well. IF WE LOSE OUR GUNS I'LL TAKE THAT AS A SIGN THAT GOD HAS ABANDONED AMERICA. Yes, I said that, but you made something else out of it altogether, a confused bunch of nonsense I couldn't decipher and just by adding in the phrase "any compromise" you've already distorted what I've been saying. I used phrases like "GOES UNDER," or "FALLS" and the point is that the nation is ALREADY under God's judgment and if we LOSE (LOSE, not "clompromise" LOSE) our gun rights I'll take it that His judgment has gone past anything we can do to restore the nation.
Faith on the other dire consequences of gun controls:
"When guns are not available to private citizens for self defense and defense in such situations as these shootings, soon the whole population is at the mercy of criminal and government powers, standing armies and so on."
GUN CONTROLS IS NOT WHAT I SAID. I'm TALKING ABOUT LOSING GUN RIGHTS ALTOGETHER. YOU ARE MISREPRESENTING MY POINT. But it does also have to do with SOME gun controls that effectively disarm us where being armed is NEEDED.
You are quoting me loutside the context of your own misreading and that amounts just as much to a distortion of my meaning.
"As well of course of the likelihood of criminal attacks both on your own home and in public and in the schools and all the rest of it, which do seem to increase where there is the least gun control and would certainly do so if guns were completely taken away from the good guys."
"I stated the Second Amendment principle, I support the principle, there's a reason we have the Second Amendment, to give us security against ALL KINDS OF TYRANNIES AND PREDATIONS, including CRIME, house invasion, government roundups, the works."
"There ARE evil people in this world. And it isn't us."
Yes. Now remind me of all the ways you distort this.
Faith putting forward the standard culture-of-fear response of demanding ever more guns and guards:'
'
["CULTURE OF FEAR" IS YOUR OWN INVENTION AND YOU ARE IMPUTING IT TO THE WRONG SOURCE, YOU ARE IMPUTING IT TO THE SIDE THAT HAS THE SOLUTION INSTEAD OF TO THE SIDE THAT IS THE CAUSE OF IT. iF THERE IS A CULTURE OF FEAR WE DIDN'T INVENT IT, IT ISN'T CAUSED BY GUNS.]
"That's better than nothing but armed teachers is the best. The surprise factor, a potential shooter not knowing who has a gun, can have a strong deterrent effect for starters. Mall shops should also have armed personnel, so should any business for that matter. We have the Second Amendment for this purpose, to defend ourselves, it's long past time we started putting it to the use for which it was intended."
"The solution is to have some kind of security in place to stop such things from happening, whether that means allowing the arming of personnel or hiring security guards."
"BUT more of the citizen owners of guns need to be packing them, especially these days."
"I still think a teacher or two from each school should have a gun."
"Under OUR circumstances, therefore, having a few concealed-carry permits among the teaching staff of our schools looks to me to be sensible and possible."
"And here's that picture again I think says so much, a Mom or a teacher toting a rifle in Israel in the presence of school children. That ought to show that it's not dangerous to have firearms around children."
You may think these views entirely unremarkable. But I can assure you that in the wider world the views you are espousing here are considered extreme to the point of disturbed.....
Yes, you've been fed that line, and AGAIN THAT IS THE BELITTLING DENIGRATING PROPAGANDA that is aimed at ultimately disarming people so that we'll be sitting ducks for the evbil powers in this world that you deny exist. Get enough people calling us "disturbed" and "extreme" and other emotionally incendiary value terms and you can contribute to getting us all killed. Thanks a lot.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1419 by Straggler, posted 01-23-2013 4:28 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1430 by Straggler, posted 01-24-2013 8:25 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 1422 of 5179 (688605)
01-23-2013 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1412 by saab93f
01-23-2013 3:54 AM


Re: The Un-American Mind
I hope Norway's methods work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1412 by saab93f, posted 01-23-2013 3:54 AM saab93f has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1423 of 5179 (688621)
01-23-2013 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1418 by GDR
01-23-2013 2:43 PM


Re: Some cases where guns would have helped and where they did help
1) No, it's the people who want to take away our gun rights who are the problem and not the solution.
2) I have no problem living by Christ's standard for myself, but He was talking to individuals, NOT TO NATIONS. In a nation the whole population is never Christian, and Christians do have the obligation to protect our families and others, and to ask whole populations to give up the right to self defense is to subject them to many forms of violence up to mass murder.
This has been proved over and over again. I should probably have included the film Innocents Betrayed in the post to you which I did post earlier and I think ICANT also posted, about how genocide follows disarming the intended victims, from the Armenian slaughter to the Jews of WWII to China and others. You can find it on You Tube if you are interested. I just found out that in Rwanda they DID first disarm the people. The massacre was planned for years in advance. At least 800 thousand totally defenseless unarmed people were murdered over a few months. A propaganda campaign calling them "cockroaches" and telling the people that God wanted them exterminated contributed to their eventual mass murders by their own friends and neighbors. And this was really a modern-day version of the Catholic Inquisition, which in its 600-year official reign killed some 67 million, 50 million of them true Christians, and continues in predominantly Catholic countries where Protestants and others who won't bow to Rome continue to be persecuted and tortured. Christ will avenge their deaths. And there are other enemies out there as well who want us disarmed so we can't get in the way of whatever their agenda is. If we have no means of self defense, then fine, we'll die knowing it's God's will for whatever reason and that we will awake in His blessed company. But if He allows us means of self defense we should make use of them.
3) To my mind the reasons for citizens to be armed far oustrip even the real dangers you worry about, and certainly all the emotion-driven propaganda-driven arguments against guns.
4) Jesus is going to His death. The situation is changing. Now they may need weapons. There is no other reason for His saying what He said. They made no move in favor of weapons, it was His idea. Peter's cutting off the ear of the soldier was wrong because Jesus was intended to die. You twist the scriptures. Go read Matthew Henry's commentary on that passage at Blue Letter Bible. Or JF& B's. Or David Guzik's. Jesus is telling them things are going to change and now they will need their purses and a sword which they didn't need up until that point. You are right, according to Guzik, however, that "it is enough" was a way of ending the conversation, not a statement about how many swords were needed. According to him it's obvious that two would NOT be enough so that Jesus could not have been saying that.
Here's JF&B:
35-38. But now--that you are going forth not as before on a temporary mission, provided for without purse or scrip, but into scenes of continued and severe trial, your methods must be different; for purse and scrip will now be needed for support, and the usual means of defense.
37. the things concerning me--decreed and written.
have an end--are rapidly drawing to a close.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1418 by GDR, posted 01-23-2013 2:43 PM GDR has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(2)
Message 1424 of 5179 (688626)
01-24-2013 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1409 by Heathen
01-23-2013 2:05 AM


Re: God's judgments on America, gun control a sign
Hi Heathen,
Heathen writes:
So you don't entertain that the constitution maybe, just maybe out of date and incorrect on this issue? on any issues?
What would make the constitution out of date concerning the second amendment?
It can be changed by an amendment ratified by 39 States.
Hethen writes:
Do you see the constitution as infallible? unchanging? inerrant truth?
Whether the constitution is infallible or not makes no difference it is the law of the land.
Heathen writes:
unchanging?
The constitution is unchanging.
But the constitution can be changed by amendments ratified by 3/4's of the States.
The Supreme Court has no authority to change the constitution. Their job is to make sure every law passed by congress conforms to the constitution.
Just for a point of information 3/4's of the States can disolve the Federal government and establish a new government.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1409 by Heathen, posted 01-23-2013 2:05 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1425 by Faith, posted 01-24-2013 12:26 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 1429 by Heathen, posted 01-24-2013 1:51 AM ICANT has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1425 of 5179 (688631)
01-24-2013 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1424 by ICANT
01-24-2013 12:06 AM


Re: God's judgments on America, gun control a sign
Just for a point of information 3/4's of the States can disolve the Federal government and establish a new government.
Please quote!

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1424 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2013 12:06 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1426 by Theodoric, posted 01-24-2013 12:38 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 1427 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2013 12:59 AM Faith has not replied

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