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Author Topic:   Falsifying a young Universe. (re: Supernova 1987A)
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 16 of 948 (67021)
11-17-2003 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Trump won
11-16-2003 9:01 PM


So you don't think God is a liar, yet you posted a quote from a paper in which the author proposes that God set up a universe that looks old by every test we can apply but is really young ... that sounds to me as if God is lying to us. How do you resolve this issue?
FYI, the vast majority of people who have considered issue have rejected the in-transit argument because they do not believe that God would intentionally deceive us in that manner. This appears to include, from what I can see, the vast majority of YECs and all the OECs.

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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 17 of 948 (67878)
11-19-2003 11:48 PM


Bump / Title modified
messenjaH was looking for this topic.
I also added the "(re:...) part to the title, and likewise added to the other Falsifying a young Universe title (which concerned the tidal locked moon and such).
Things have been exceptionly active, so these topics had fallen pretty far down the list of most recent active topics.
AM

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 18 of 948 (68071)
11-20-2003 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Eta_Carinae
11-16-2003 9:51 PM


Non-scientists? There are many scientists that believe in the biblical account of creation.
Oh yeah I forgot, evidences is a word. I don't like being a fool because of things I said that were right.
tr.v. evidenced, evidencing, evidences
To indicate clearly; exemplify or prove.
To support by testimony; attest.
------------------
-chris

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 19 of 948 (68072)
11-20-2003 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by JonF
11-17-2003 8:45 AM


Wait a second, I thought Humphrey's said that (according to his book/tape) God made all of the objects that are billions of years away/millions etc appear to Adam so he could see all of his wonderful creation. Tell me I'm wrong if this isn't the explanation of God's actions that he gives in his book.
------------------
-chris

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 20 of 948 (68074)
11-20-2003 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by JonF
11-17-2003 8:40 AM


It seems you are right, they do refute many YEC claims.
------------------
-chris

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 21 of 948 (68076)
11-20-2003 5:42 PM


Much of talkorigins can be refuted by taking a look at trueorigins.
A side note: Ashby responded to the: 29 evidences of macro response to Ashby. I was wondering if he did and I soon found out he had.
------------------
-chris
[This message has been edited by messenjaH, 11-20-2003]

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Rei
Member (Idle past 7012 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 22 of 948 (68078)
11-20-2003 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Trump won
11-20-2003 5:26 PM


quote:
Non-scientists? There are many scientists that believe in the biblical account of creation.
Related Thread: Are Scientists Abandoning Evolution?
quote:
Much of talkorigins can be refuted by taking a look at trueorigins.
Go right ahead - name something, anything, that you think they've done even a subpar job with. We'd love the chance to dig into it.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."
[This message has been edited by Rei, 11-20-2003]

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 23 of 948 (68083)
11-20-2003 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Trump won
11-20-2003 5:42 PM


Trueorigins has a much lower quality of article. The kindest I could say is that it attempts to refute some parts of talkorigins. And usually gets it wrong.
From memory the trueorigins essay on evolution can be summed up like this: (starting from the link on the homepage)
"Here is an essay showing that evolution violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics"
"Here are a lot of quotes saying that the Second law of Termodynamics can't be broken.
But evolution doesn't break the Second Law of Thermodynamics so we'll make up some other rule and say that evolution breaks THAT.
Therefore evolution breaks the Second Law of Thermodynamics"
What can you say about logic like that ?
[Edited to correct errors - thanks Jon]
[This message has been edited by PaulK, 11-21-2003]

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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 24 of 948 (68088)
11-20-2003 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by PaulK
11-20-2003 6:32 PM


Talkorigins has a much lower quality of article. The kindest I could say is that it attempts to refute soem parts of talkorigins.
I get your point, but ISTM that your first word isn'w what you intended.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 25 of 948 (68091)
11-20-2003 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Trump won
11-20-2003 5:32 PM


thought Humphrey's said that (according to his book/tape) God made all of the objects that are billions of years away/millions etc appear to Adam so he could see all of his wonderful creation. Tell me I'm wrong if this isn't the explanation of God's actions that he gives in his book.
I don't know if that is or is not what Humphreys says in his book. It sounds like a pretty poor attempt at a rationalization to me. Remember I pointed out that every test that we apply says that the Universe and Earth is old. And we've come up with a lot of tests ...
Did God create the cosmic microwave background so we could see all his wonderful creation? Did God create all the rocks with just the right amounts of different radioactive isotopes and producta, just the right amount of radiatino damage, and just the right amount of varnish and weathering so as to appear old ... so we could see al lhis wonderful rocks? I could go on and on for pages and pages listing all the phenomena that indicate an old Earth and universe ... if God did it circa 10,000 years ago She certainly put a lot of effort into fooling us.

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Rei
Member (Idle past 7012 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 26 of 948 (68102)
11-20-2003 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by JonF
11-20-2003 6:48 PM


I'll go on with a few more.
Why did God create on Earth only the isotopes of elements that either have half lives longer than a few hundred million years (i.e., so that all such isotopes created over 5 billion years ago would not be gone) years or are part of a nuclear decay series - while creating the other "missing" elements elsewhere in the galaxy (as visible by spectroscopy)?
Why did God create bodies in space such as over 26 different distance measurement methods all indicate pretty much the same distances, and many of them are millions or even billions of light years away (meaning that any light that we're seing from them - including *events* such as star births and deaths) either occurred millions or billions of years ago, or God is playing a prank on us to make us think that they did.
Why did God place tree ring chronologies that appear to go back almost 10,000 years? Why did God place ice cores whose carbon 12/carbon 14 ratios match up with the tree ring chronologies, and go back hundreds of thousands of years? Why did God place varves and coral clocks that likewise go back for many thousands of years and match up?
Why did God give us a sun whose radiative energy and neutrino flux are consitant with a ball of fusion born about 5 billion years ago?
Hmm... I'll stop here for now, I don't want to Gish the thread. In short, the question is: What kind of prankster do you worship? Why does he want to deceive us so with his creation?
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."
[This message has been edited by Rei, 11-20-2003]

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 27 of 948 (68106)
11-20-2003 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Rei
11-20-2003 7:22 PM


This might be starting off topic into God the deceiver.
As well, if I remember what I read of Humphries words. He started off presenting the idea of God the deciever simply to show that he believes it is bad theology and then goes into what he pretends is a scientific explanation for why our measurements are wrong. Not that we have been misled but that we didn't do it right.

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 28 of 948 (68483)
11-21-2003 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by AdminNosy
11-20-2003 7:27 PM


By watching a video of his famed book "Starlight and Time" I believe that the God as the deciever is not the belief he supports with his arguments. I can be wrong of course but I am fairly sure what I wrote before is a summary of the belief behind the science.
------------------
-chris

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 29 of 948 (68484)
11-21-2003 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Rei
11-20-2003 7:22 PM


No prankster.
------------------
-chris

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 30 of 948 (68487)
11-21-2003 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Trump won
11-21-2003 10:01 PM


no prankster
Of course not. The universe is as old as it appears to be.
Very few would suggest the "prankster" as a resolution to the problem so there is no other conclusion but that the universe is as shown by the evidence.

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