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Author Topic:   The $5,000,000 ID Research Challenge
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 46 of 285 (678688)
11-09-2012 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Taq
11-09-2012 12:49 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
So your research would be more on how we could use ID in the future to design technology, correct?
No. I.D. is loosly defined. So since everyone wants to play with the definition and argue that, I would like to supply a definition that supports my argument.
That Definition is simply: The universe was designed to operate in the order it does, including all dynamics of evolutions, the physical boundaries of mass and it's relativity to other energies and masses.
Of course the definition would require a 'designer' of unknown and perhaps unfathamable power and ability next to human abilities.
My argument would imply that the potential for such a thing, and even the potential for the idea of this universe being a design by a greater being, is true.
That: for those who wish to research science and life to try to ascertain the truth; should target work done to understand consciousness and expand on that. Know the brain and energy transfers and recording methods and break the code of brain communication within itself.
What will the research yield? Who knows? That’s why it's called 'research'.
Also--if you’re a science geek--who doesn't like star trek, eh? Maybe there is a Vulcan of sorts out there. It’s worth seeking.
So what would be wrong with a few billion worshipers of thier God doing what they have always done and seek God? Let them seek God with the greatest tools of mankind in understanding the world we inhabit. I believe that is the tools of science.
Don't tell me you would turn down five million dollars to experiment on solar sail capabilities? If that money came from churches or the pope, or Buddhists, or various protestants, what would that matter?

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Taq, posted 11-09-2012 12:49 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 11-09-2012 10:03 PM tesla has replied
 Message 55 by Taq, posted 11-13-2012 11:35 AM tesla has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 285 (678695)
11-09-2012 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by tesla
11-09-2012 8:59 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
That: for those who wish to research science and life to try to ascertain the truth; should target work done to understand consciousness and expand on that. Know the brain and energy transfers and recording methods and break the code of brain communication within itself.
So what would be wrong with a few billion worshipers of thier God doing what they have always done and seek God? Let them seek God with the greatest tools of mankind in understanding the world we inhabit. I believe that is the tools of science.
Please connect the dots. How would studying the brain and communication within the brain lead to an understanding of God? Why should we expect that studying the brain is going to lead to a greater understanding of the world we inhabit than directly studying the world we inhabit?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by tesla, posted 11-09-2012 8:59 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by tesla, posted 11-09-2012 10:34 PM NoNukes has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 48 of 285 (678699)
11-09-2012 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by NoNukes
11-09-2012 10:03 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
Please connect the dots. How would studying the brain and communication within the brain lead to an understanding of God? Why should we expect that studying the brain is going to lead to a greater understanding of the world we inhabit than directly studying the world we inhabit?
Are you suggesting the brain is not a direct part of the world we inhabit?

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 11-09-2012 10:03 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by NoNukes, posted 11-10-2012 12:25 AM tesla has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 285 (678710)
11-10-2012 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by tesla
11-09-2012 10:34 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
Are you suggesting the brain is not a direct part of the world we inhabit?
I am.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by tesla, posted 11-09-2012 10:34 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by tesla, posted 11-10-2012 9:00 AM NoNukes has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 50 of 285 (678738)
11-10-2012 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by NoNukes
11-10-2012 12:25 AM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
I am
The human brain is a very real part of the world we inhabit, in fact it is through that tool that every living species has the power to think, to feel, to investigate, and to remember. Without your brain, you would not know the world around you even existed.
Science has many researches in the field, from those who study to map cognitive functions and fight brain disorders, to scientist creating implants that will operate prosthetic limbs.
There is a lot yet to know about the brain and how thoughts and ideas are formed. the mystery of the human brain--which is the greatest work of engineering ever found in natural systems--is slowly being understood. Monkeys are made smarter, and human behavior is being better understood, even to the point that some fear mind control.
Whatever you may think of your own brain, it is your brain that enables you to think. and scientists all over the world are very interested in making that process better.
Edited by tesla, : missed a / in [/qs]
Edited by tesla, : missed a / in [/qs]

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by NoNukes, posted 11-10-2012 12:25 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by NoNukes, posted 11-10-2012 11:13 AM tesla has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 285 (678787)
11-10-2012 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by tesla
11-10-2012 9:00 AM


Human brain part of the world we live in? Not so much.
he human brain is a very real part of the world we inhabit, in fact it is through that tool that every living species has the power to think, to feel, to investigate, and to remember. Without your brain, you would not know the world around you even existed.
Yes, that's mostly true. Except the part about every living species using a human brain. A closer to being correct statement our human brains are a part of us and we inhabit the world that we live in.
However, I don't expect it to be productive to study communications in a human brain in an attempt to learn how God created the universe, which is what your original post seemed to imply.
What I am asking you to do here is to link studying of the brain to anything remotely related to Intelligent Design of the universe. If instead you want to say studying the human brain will allow us to design things like prosthesis units, and to study human behavior, well 1) we already spend money on those things such that 5,000,000 dollars is a drop in the bucket, and 2) that spending is not on topic regardless of your attempts to equivocate on the meaning of ID.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by tesla, posted 11-10-2012 9:00 AM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by tesla, posted 11-10-2012 5:14 PM NoNukes has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 52 of 285 (678811)
11-10-2012 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by NoNukes
11-10-2012 11:13 AM


Re: Human brain part of the world we live in? Not so much.
Except the part about every living species using a human brain.
You know what I meant.
However, I don't expect it to be productive to study communications in a human brain in an attempt to learn how God created the universe
You don't think about possibilities of consciousness? The reason to look to the brain for answers concerning intelligent design is because intelligence denotes consciousness, which as far as I know requires a brain. The more we understand that system of our world, the better chance we have of seeing if it is possible on larger scales.
Do you follow me? Or are you just being argumentative?

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by NoNukes, posted 11-10-2012 11:13 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by NoNukes, posted 11-10-2012 9:23 PM tesla has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 285 (678846)
11-10-2012 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by tesla
11-10-2012 5:14 PM


Re: Human brain part of the world we live in? Not so much.
You don't think about possibilities of consciousness? The reason to look to the brain for answers concerning intelligent design is because intelligence denotes consciousness, which as far as I know requires a brain. The more we understand that system of our world, the better chance we have of seeing if it is possible on larger scales.
So you are postulating an intelligent designer that has a brain based consciousness like ours or analogous to ours but on a larger scale? So we study our own brain processes and then we will understand the designer. Is that your proposal?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by tesla, posted 11-10-2012 5:14 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by tesla, posted 11-11-2012 8:16 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 54 of 285 (678882)
11-11-2012 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by NoNukes
11-10-2012 9:23 PM


Re: Human brain part of the world we live in? of course it is silly.
So you are postulating an intelligent designer that has a brain based consciousness like ours or analogous to ours but on a larger scale? So we study our own brain processes and then we will understand the designer. Is that your proposal?
No. My proposal is to study the brain to better understand consciousness in hopes new knowledge will shed light on possibilities of greater consciousness, and how to look for it.
Edited by tesla, : No reason given.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by NoNukes, posted 11-10-2012 9:23 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Taq, posted 11-13-2012 11:36 AM tesla has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 55 of 285 (679323)
11-13-2012 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by tesla
11-09-2012 8:59 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
My argument would imply that the potential for such a thing, and even the potential for the idea of this universe being a design by a greater being, is true.
I am more interested in research that demonstrates that an intelligent designer DID design things in the past. Can you describe the types of experiments you would need to do in order to figure this out?
So what would be wrong with a few billion worshipers of thier God doing what they have always done and seek God?
More to the point, why would they need $5,000,000 dollars to do scientific research that would support their claims?
Don't tell me you would turn down five million dollars to experiment on solar sail capabilities?
The title of the thread is not "The $5,000,000 Solar Sail Challenge".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by tesla, posted 11-09-2012 8:59 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by tesla, posted 11-13-2012 6:07 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 56 of 285 (679324)
11-13-2012 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by tesla
11-11-2012 8:16 AM


Re: Human brain part of the world we live in? of course it is silly.
No. My proposal is to study the brain to better understand consciousness in hopes new knowledge will shed light on possibilities of greater consciousness, and how to look for it.
That would not satisfy the requirements for the challenge I have set forth in this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by tesla, posted 11-11-2012 8:16 AM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by tesla, posted 11-13-2012 6:11 PM Taq has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 57 of 285 (679395)
11-13-2012 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Taq
11-13-2012 11:35 AM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
I am more interested in research that demonstrates that an intelligent designer DID design things in the past. Can you describe the types of experiments you would need to do in order to figure this out?
Until more information about our universe is known, there isn't anything you could do to begin researching such a question. The best thing for now is better understand consciousness and hope that data proves useful to the ends of discovering the potential designer. The second best thing is figuring out higher speed space travel and better waves of interstellar living or extra-planetary living. Doing those kinds of things may one day lead to enough information to ask that question again.
More to the point, why would they need $5,000,000 dollars to do scientific research that would support their claims?
The money isn't for them to support claims. the money is for scientists to explore potentials.
The title of the thread is not "The $5,000,000 Solar Sail Challenge".
Ah, but if solar sails are a part of the puzzle to the end goal, then it's a required investment. Nobody can explore space without equipment to explore it. And nobody needed to make an atom of gold to verify the Higgs Bosen.
You can't answer a question without taking the path to the answer. You can't do calculus without knowing algebra.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Taq, posted 11-13-2012 11:35 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Taq, posted 11-14-2012 10:52 AM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 58 of 285 (679396)
11-13-2012 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Taq
11-13-2012 11:36 AM


Re: Human brain part of the world we live in? of course it is silly.
That would not satisfy the requirements for the challenge I have set forth in this thread.
Could you repost your requirements for the challenge, including any modifications you have made through discussion?

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Taq, posted 11-13-2012 11:36 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by NoNukes, posted 11-14-2012 6:28 AM tesla has replied
 Message 60 by Taq, posted 11-14-2012 10:49 AM tesla has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 285 (679511)
11-14-2012 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by tesla
11-13-2012 6:11 PM


Re: Human brain part of the world we live in? of course it is silly.
Could you repost your requirements...
There are about 60 messages in this thread. I think you should take time to puruse them. You can take the shortcut of reading only Taq's messages.
But the short answer is that you have not even addressed what was asked for in the original post (message 1).

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by tesla, posted 11-13-2012 6:11 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by tesla, posted 11-14-2012 10:33 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 60 of 285 (679527)
11-14-2012 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by tesla
11-13-2012 6:11 PM


Re: Human brain part of the world we live in? of course it is silly.
Could you repost your requirements for the challenge, including any modifications you have made through discussion?
A poster here, Genomicus, has made some interesting claims about intelligent design. He has claimed that the designer put front loaded genes into early life which allowed for the emergence of complex systems later in the evolutionary history of life. Quite a few of us found his approach to be much more scientific than other ID approaches, but it still lacked a focused scientific vision. That is what gave birth to this thread.
First and foremost, I am looking for a research program that uses the fossil record and modern organisms (be it developmental biology, genomics, morphology) in a scientific manner. Specifically, I am looking for the ID scientist to make testable predictions and then test them, and these need to be positive evidence for ID, not negative evidence against evolution.
The primary focus of your ideas are not focused on the history of life. Rather, you are focused on the future of human intelligence. Even if we gain super-intelligence and are able to design planets of life of our own this does not mean that we came about because of such a cause. You still need to find evidence for ID in the past, and that evidence should be found in our genomes and in the fossil record.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by tesla, posted 11-13-2012 6:11 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by tesla, posted 11-14-2012 10:16 PM Taq has replied

  
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