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Author Topic:   The war of atheism
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 151 of 526 (678047)
11-04-2012 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by roxrkool
11-04-2012 12:59 PM


Re: Atheism+
You know, I read about this *elevatorgate* episode previously, just before I stopped reading Pharyngula, and I honestly didn't see the big deal at the time.
I don't understand how you missed what the big deal was. The situation was pretty simple:
1) Rebecca Watson gave a speech at an atheist convention about how sometimes some guys do things, like hit on her when she's stuck in a confined space, that make her uncomfortable and they don't seem to realize it. Immediately after the speech, a guy hit on her while she was stuck in a confined space. She wrote a blog post about the irony, hoping to illustrate the issue.
2) In response, hundreds of atheist men came out of the woodwork to tell her she was a stupid fucking slut who should be raped to death, possibly by themselves; hundreds more came out in vocal support of the right of atheist men to say that to prominent women; yet hundreds more came out to tell Watson that while they didn't agree with violence and the people who said those things should be ashamed, they could understand why they would react the way they did - they're men, after all, and a woman should know better than to antagonize them by opening her mouth.
3) A few people noticed the above and suggested, quite timidly, that maybe the enormous sexist response to a pretty mild criticism of a fairly poorly-considered act maybe actually does indicate that there's kind of a sexism problem in the atheist community. Richard Dawkins came out and basically said "there can't be any such thing as a sexism problem in atheism so long as a single woman, somewhere, is wearing a burkha. Or if there is, we're certainly not going to pay attention to it."
That's "Elevator-gate." I'm not sure what you read that was the "last straw" for you on Pharyngula, but PZ Myers was doing yeoman's work dealing with the storm sewer of sexist filth that pours forth anytime you say the words "Rebecca Watson", so I'm guessing you just didn't ever get the whole story. His notion that if a woman is telling you about a sexism problem that she perceives in your community, and you're not yourself a woman, then you should basically shut the fuck up and listen to what they have to say about it is exactly the perfect response and one I strongly agree with.
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 152 of 526 (678051)
11-04-2012 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by crashfrog
11-04-2012 4:36 PM


Re: Atheism+
crashfrog writes:
Richard Dawkins came out and basically said "there can't be any such thing as a sexism problem in atheism so long as a single woman, somewhere, is wearing a burkha. Or if there is, we're certainly not going to pay attention to it."
Here's the Richard Dawkins post.
quote:
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skepchick, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 153 of 526 (678053)
11-04-2012 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by roxrkool
11-04-2012 12:59 PM


Re: Atheism+
You know, I read about this *elevatorgate* episode previously, just before I stopped reading Pharyngula, and I honestly didn't see the big deal at the time.
Rebecca Watson made a comment about an incident that happened to her, and which has come to be known as "elevator guy".
PZ Myers thought this mentioning on his blog.
No big deal in either case. It was just a point that they thought mentioning. And they did not make a big deal of it.
But then large numbers of people came out of the woodwork, and did make a big deal of it. They were very angry at Watson for even mentioning the incident, and angry at PZ for mentioning it on his blog.
This should have been a minor issue. Many people made a big deal out of it. That is what suggested that there is a problem.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 988 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


(1)
Message 154 of 526 (678054)
11-04-2012 7:44 PM


I see.
So Elevatorgate wasn't that some guy picked her up in the elevator (creeping her out), but that some people (mostly men) thought she shouldn't have responded the way she did and therefore abused her over the internet.
That's a bit more of the story that I did not know.
I think it's easy to get caught up in drama that unfolds on the internet when you are not actually speaking to people face to face. Anonymity gives a lot of people courage to do and say stupid things.

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 988 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 155 of 526 (678078)
11-05-2012 1:08 AM


Even more complicated
So I've been digging into this drama a bit more and found what appears to be a fairly unbiased summary of the ordeal:
http://freethoughtkampala.wordpress.com/...1/elevatorgate/
My understanding and knowledge on Elevatorgate has improved, but my original impression has not changed. I remain skeptical of RW in general, and I really don't agree with her or her followers' opinions on feminism. I particularly dislike the attitude that if you don't agree with her version of feminism, that you are a "gender traitor." Or in effect, not a *real* feminist.

Replies to this message:
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Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 156 of 526 (678092)
11-05-2012 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by roxrkool
11-05-2012 1:08 AM


Re: Even more complicated
They are all attention whores who often forget honesty and justice while polishing their egos.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 157 of 526 (678095)
11-05-2012 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by roxrkool
11-05-2012 1:08 AM


elevator gate has its own thread
It is related to this topic and all, but there is a thread especially for it, so you might be interested: Anyone ever heard of Rebecca Watson?

This message is a reply to:
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Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


(1)
Message 158 of 526 (678102)
11-05-2012 8:38 AM


Now this is really a coincidence. As it turns out one time I was riding up an escalator at the same time Rebecca Watson was was coming down the opposite escalator. Strange.
At first she just kind of looked at me, which was a little off putting, but I just tried to ignore and look straight ahead, but then she opened her mouth and said hello. Now I know what she meant by saying hello, because people don't just say hello to members of the opposite sex at four in the afternoon, at least not people with any class at all. And frankly I was pretty darn angry and confused about being sexually objectified in this way. I tried to get it out of my mind, but then I thought, why should I have to? Who the hell is Rebecca Watson to say hello to me? I want Rebecca Watson to live by my rules of conduct, I want her to suppress saying hello to any men she sees on the street for the rest of her life, so that I can be sure to be comfortable. I don't care if some men like women saying hello to them, I don't. So I made a video on youtube about it.
Of course some people disagreed with me, but you know what, **** them. **** all of them. Rebecca Watson is a creep for saying hello to me. I AM UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THAT! That is my right to voice that.
I will make a video about each and everyone of those who disagrees with me, and I will call them out by name at my next public speaking engagement, because well, I own the moral highground. She should never have looked at me that day, and if you don't agree with me, you are a bitch too. I want equality, and this is the equality I want. You got a problem with that?
Oh, and by the way, if you believe in a higher spiritual being, and I don't, I am right, and you are wrong. Its called skeptical thinking. Its brilliant.

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 159 of 526 (678103)
11-05-2012 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by roxrkool
11-05-2012 1:08 AM


Re: Even more complicated
I remain skeptical of RW in general, and I really don't agree with her or her followers' opinions on feminism.
I respect her right to free speech, which she exercises on her blog.
However, I am not a regular reader of her blog. I have better ways to spend my time.
Still, nothing justifies the reaction to her post and youtube video. If people think "elevator guy incident" was no big deal (and I'm inclined to agree with that), shouldn't they also think that RW's reaction was also no big deal?

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 160 of 526 (678117)
11-05-2012 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by roxrkool
11-02-2012 11:14 PM


Re: Atheism+
Because my atheism has absolutely nothing to do with feminism, racism, or homophobia.
I think that's rather the point. Atheism doesn't have anything to do with those things, but there are some atheists who, in addition to being atheists, are interested in social justice issues too. People who identify strongly with the atheism label, because they are interested in issues of religion/politics/society and the place that nonbelievers have in those things, but also have an interest in all those 'liberal' social goals.
I don't have to be a feminist, non-racist, homo-friendly, flaming liberal to be an atheist.
Quite right - but if you were those things, maybe that group would be of interest.
This movement reminds me of when someone told me I couldn't call myself a Democrat and work in the mining industry because a 'real' Democrat would never rape the planet.
They aren't saying that if you don't agree with these things you aren't an atheist. They are saying that you aren't an Atheist+.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 988 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 161 of 526 (678199)
11-05-2012 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Modulous
11-05-2012 12:59 PM


Re: Atheism+
They aren't saying that if you don't agree with these things you aren't an atheist. They are saying that you aren't an Atheist+.
Based on what I've read, what they appear to be saying is that if you don't agree with their logic, you support everything they abhor. And that makes you a misogynist, rape supporter, racist, and other horrible things.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 164 by Modulous, posted 11-06-2012 11:32 AM roxrkool has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 526 (678203)
11-05-2012 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by roxrkool
11-05-2012 11:34 PM


Re: Atheism+
"Holier than thou" is most fitting, no?

This message is a reply to:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 163 of 526 (678253)
11-06-2012 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by roxrkool
11-05-2012 11:34 PM


Re: Atheism+
what they appear to be saying
It's not even that they appear to be saying that: many of "them" have actually said exactly that. RW herself has said "I'll leave atheism to the misogynists, racists and rapists". I listen to The Atheist Experience and Matt Dillahunty (a pretty big voice in the movement, IMO) has said basically the same. PZ Meyers as well. And Greta Christina. However, I'll be fucked if I'm actually going to scour twitter and facebook for these comments to back up my claim, so take it for what it's worth I guess.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 164 of 526 (678263)
11-06-2012 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by roxrkool
11-05-2012 11:34 PM


Re: Atheism+
Based on what I've read, what they appear to be saying is that if you don't agree with their logic, you support everything they abhor. And that makes you a misogynist, rape supporter, racist, and other horrible things.
Well that seems to be a long standing issue with feminism, rather than just Atheism+ - and much of Atheism+ is the Pharyngula community, which is notoriously lion's dennish. They have consciously adopted the tactic of angrily denouncing opinions, people whatever, that they view as being problematic for their goals. This tactic is reinforced when someone claims to have had their mind changed not by mere dispassionate argument, but when they called a fool or accused of harming the movement or the like.
With that said, I have an anonymous username at the Atheist+ forums - but I've never posted there because I really don't like that if you haven't familiarized yourself with the results of all the major (in their minds) discussions that they have already had - then you should be berated. And given the attitudes from some other atheists I've read, this is not an uncommon perception. So the movement might have growth problems.

This message is a reply to:
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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 988 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


(2)
Message 165 of 526 (678273)
11-06-2012 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by hooah212002
11-06-2012 10:01 AM


Re: Atheism+
Yes. I read a bit of Richard Carrier's blog and he basically stated that the Atheists who subscribe to Atheism+ are more rational and more moral than those who do not.
We already know what happens to movements who think they are more moral than the rest of the masses...they create (not become) "others." Outcasts. I understand that all humans are susceptible to superiority complexes, but it's still a bit disheartening to see it happening to atheists.
It also really bothers me that this movement is essentially politicizing and religionizing (for lack of a better word) atheism, particularly since we've fought so hard to explain to people that Atheism is not a religion. I guess we were wrong.
Edited by roxrkool, : 'become' changed to 'create'

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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