Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 166 of 349 (671689)
08-29-2012 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by 1.61803
08-29-2012 10:35 AM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
Numbers writes:
The picture is a optical illusion. It is not moving, that is how human brains are wired.
I agree. But I want to understand how you think you know this. So - How do you know this?
Numbers writes:
How many times have you had a dream that was perceived as reality? Could you distinguish what was a dream and what was not?
Well I have had dreams about all sorts of things. Including things things that could be called demons. But I don't believe that these things were real rather than just dreamt.
Do you believe everything you dream is real?
Numbers writes:
I can not KNOW.
I didn't say "KNOW". I said "know". Can you give an example of something we can know? Or do you consider knowledge impossible?
Numbers writes:
We believe the things we do because we choose to believe them imo.
Is not what is objectively real and what is not a rather important factor here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by 1.61803, posted 08-29-2012 10:35 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Phat, posted 08-30-2012 3:10 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 169 by 1.61803, posted 08-30-2012 9:33 AM Straggler has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 167 of 349 (671749)
08-30-2012 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Straggler
08-29-2012 12:42 PM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
Straggler writes:
Is not what is objectively real and what is not a rather important factor here?
yes, and i think you would agree with the following statement:
quote:
According to the ethical objectivist, the truth or falsity of typical moral judgments does not depend upon the beliefs or feelings of any person or group of persons. This view holds that moral propositions are analogous to propositions about chemistry, biology, or history: they describe (or fail to describe) a mind-independent reality. When they describe it accurately, they are trueno matter what anyone believes, hopes, wishes, or feels. When they fail to describe this mind-independent moral reality, they are falseno matter what anyone believes, hopes, wishes, or feels.
Thus for you, what is real is only what is provable or "evident"
and i can respect that, though im more of a leap of faith subjectivist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Straggler, posted 08-29-2012 12:42 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Straggler, posted 08-30-2012 8:41 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 168 of 349 (671761)
08-30-2012 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Phat
08-30-2012 3:10 AM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
Phat writes:
yes, and i think you would agree with the following statement:
Not really. I am not an advocate of objective morality (except in a very indirect, rather convuluted and rather abstract sense that is way way off-topic here........)
Phat writes:
Thus for you, what is real is only what is provable or "evident" and i can respect that, though im more of a leap of faith subjectivist
I don't think much outside of axiomatic logic (e.g. math) is provable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Phat, posted 08-30-2012 3:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 169 of 349 (671765)
08-30-2012 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Straggler
08-29-2012 12:42 PM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
Straggerl writes:
How do you know this?
The same way you do.
Straggler writes:
But I don't believe that these things were real rather than just dreamt.
Indeed, but I ask again how do you know whilst dreaming that you are dreaming and not participating in reality?
Can you give an example of something we can know?
1+1=2
Is not what is objectively real and what is not a rather important factor here?
Yes, my only point was humans have for ages have been grappling with what is knowlege, and how do we obtain it. What is truth and how do we distinguish it? A justified true belief?
What if the universe is actually a2D projection giving rise to the illusion of what humans call reality? Then that would be reality, illusory or not. If one can not distinquish a thing from another is there a difference?

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Straggler, posted 08-29-2012 12:42 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Straggler, posted 08-30-2012 9:47 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 170 of 349 (671766)
08-30-2012 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by 1.61803
08-30-2012 9:33 AM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
Numbers writes:
The picture is a optical illusion. It is not moving, that is how human brains are wired.
Straggler writes:
I agree. But I want to understand how you think you know this. So - How do you know this?
Numbers writes:
The same way you do.
Which is.....?
Numbers writes:
Indeed, but I ask again how do you know whilst dreaming that you are dreaming and not participating in reality?
How do you know that the image isn't really moving?
Cartesian doubt doesn't make knowledge an impossibility does it? It makes certainty an impossibility.
Straggler writes:
Can you give an example of something we can know?
Numbers writes:
1+1=2
Can you give a non-mathematical example of something we can know?
Numbers writes:
Yes, my only point was humans have for ages have been grappling with what is knowlege, and how do we obtain it.
Yes they have. And much of that grappling has focused on the differences between belief and knowledge and certainty.
Where do you think the proposed existence of demons comes in on that "scale" and why.....?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by 1.61803, posted 08-30-2012 9:33 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by 1.61803, posted 08-30-2012 10:20 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 172 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-30-2012 11:37 AM Straggler has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 171 of 349 (671768)
08-30-2012 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Straggler
08-30-2012 9:47 AM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
Which is.....?
My experience.
How do you know that the image isn't really moving?
My experience.
Can you give a non-mathematical example of something we can know?
Congito ergo sum.
Where do you think the proposed existence of demons comes in on that "scale" and why..
There are folks who believe a great number of things that may or may not exist such as demons. Most of which I believe are based on superstition and culture. A imaginary demon is a manifestation of religious evil being played out. Much like a woman who drowns her children because a devil or demon told her to, the evil of her deeds are very real imo. She is at that moment a personification of unjustified evil. The mother rationalizes her actions as being possessed and therefore not culpable, and others being unable to make sense of the heinous act, attribute it to evil. Is a demon responsible? My opinion is no, but to others perhaps the sickness in her mind is a metaphor for demon snd how they make sense of the world.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Straggler, posted 08-30-2012 9:47 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Straggler, posted 09-04-2012 1:06 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 172 of 349 (671776)
08-30-2012 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Straggler
08-30-2012 9:47 AM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
How do you know that the image isn't really moving?
Because its a jpg not a gif.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Straggler, posted 08-30-2012 9:47 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Panda, posted 08-30-2012 12:11 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied
 Message 177 by Straggler, posted 09-04-2012 12:57 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 173 of 349 (671783)
08-30-2012 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by New Cat's Eye
08-30-2012 11:37 AM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
Catholic Scientist writes:
Because its a jpg not a gif.
How do you know it is not a gif with a .jpg suffix?

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-30-2012 11:37 AM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by NoNukes, posted 08-30-2012 3:36 PM Panda has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 349 (671812)
08-30-2012 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Panda
08-30-2012 12:11 PM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
I opened the file with a text editor and looked at the heading which included JFIF. The file is a jpg file.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Panda, posted 08-30-2012 12:11 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Panda, posted 08-30-2012 9:37 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 175 of 349 (671849)
08-30-2012 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by NoNukes
08-30-2012 3:36 PM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
NoNukes writes:
I opened the file with a text editor and looked at the heading which included JFIF. The file is a jpg file.
I am thinking that you only did that after I asked the question...

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by NoNukes, posted 08-30-2012 3:36 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 176 of 349 (671977)
09-01-2012 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
08-27-2012 3:41 PM


Re: Wrongness
Phat writes:
When will you people understand that absence of evidence never proves evidence of absence.
Absence of evidence proves the absence of evidence.
In a court of law, the prosecution is obliged to prove its case by producing evidence that supports their case. If they can not do that the Judge will dismiss the case..
The defence can sit on its hands and say nothing at all except:
"M'lord, I move to dismiss the case for lack of evidence".
That's what we're doing here. Produce the evidence or remove the claim.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 08-27-2012 3:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 177 of 349 (672169)
09-04-2012 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by New Cat's Eye
08-30-2012 11:37 AM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
Yeah, but it’s a .jpg that has been supernaturally enhanced by demons..
At least that’s what the demons told me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-30-2012 11:37 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 178 of 349 (672170)
09-04-2012 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by 1.61803
08-30-2012 10:20 AM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
Numbers writes:
My opinion is no, but to others perhaps the sickness in her mind is a metaphor for demon snd how they make sense of the world.
But metaphors for demons are metaphors rather than real demons. The question is where this idea of demons comes from and all the objective evidence indicates that they are things invented by humans for reasons that have everything to do with human psychology and nothing to do with the actual existence of real demons.
Numbers writes:
Straggler writes:
How do you know that the image isn't really moving?
My experience.
Let me correct you. You subjective experience suggests it is moving. But your wider, more objective, verifiable by others, experience tells us it isn't moving. Subjectively it is moving. But objectively you know it's an optical illusion.
I'm sure there is a mataphor for demons in there somewhere..........

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by 1.61803, posted 08-30-2012 10:20 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Phat, posted 09-05-2012 2:39 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 182 by 1.61803, posted 09-05-2012 12:25 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 179 of 349 (672244)
09-05-2012 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Straggler
09-04-2012 1:06 PM


Objective vs Subjective
Straggler writes:
The question is where this idea of demons comes from and all the objective evidence indicates that they are things invented by humans for reasons that have everything to do with human psychology and nothing to do with the actual existence of real demons.
And as one who has had subjective evidence, I dont buy the idea that demons are not real.
I dont think the verdict can be issued so easily...at this point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Straggler, posted 09-04-2012 1:06 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Tangle, posted 09-05-2012 3:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 181 by Straggler, posted 09-05-2012 4:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 183 by ringo, posted 09-05-2012 12:45 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 180 of 349 (672247)
09-05-2012 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Phat
09-05-2012 2:39 AM


Re: Objective vs Subjective
Phat writes:
I dont think the verdict can be issued so easily...at this point.
The verdict is not guilty - beyond reasonable doubt

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Phat, posted 09-05-2012 2:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024