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Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Do you really believe that you can trace racial differences to one of Noah's sons ... ? I posted below that Dwakins agrees with this whole trend of thought ... Surely some mistake?
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Just when I thought I'd seen it all ...
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Eli Member (Idle past 3513 days) Posts: 274 Joined: |
It's not the latest published book, not even by just those authors.
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Big_Al35 Member (Idle past 822 days) Posts: 389 Joined: |
Percy writes: we have only directly observed macroevolution in very short-lived species, such as bacteria, fruit flies Surely, macro-evolution in bacteria should be referred to as micro-evolution by its very nature?
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Big_Al35 Member (Idle past 822 days) Posts: 389 Joined: |
Percy writes: we have only directly observed macroevolution in very short-lived species, such as bacteria, fruit flies You might want to check out this link regarding fruit flies ---> Fruit Flies in the Face of Macroevolution | The Institute for Creation Research Edited by Big_Al35, : No reason given.
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Big_Al35 writes: Surely, macro-evolution in bacteria should be referred to as micro-evolution by its very nature? "Micro" is a modifier of "evolution", not of "bacteria". "Micro" refers to the degree of evolutionary change, not to the size of the organism. Bacteria can experience a macroevolutionary degree of change.
Big_Al35 in Message 140 writes: You might want to check out this link regarding fruit flies ---> Fruit Flies in the Face of Macroevolution | The Institute for Creation Research You might want to check out rule 5 of the Forum Guidelines:
But you seem to be arguing away from the topic. The question is the difference between micro and macroevolution. You seem to want to argue whether macroevolution ever happens. --Percy
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Big_Al35 Member (Idle past 822 days) Posts: 389 Joined: |
Percy writes: "Micro" is a modifier of "evolution", not of "bacteria". "Micro" refers to the degree of evolutionary change, not to the size of the organism. Bacteria can experience a macroevolutionary degree of change. All references to evolution on bacteria are referred to as micro not macro. A simple google search will tell you that. Here is one exampleExamples of microevolution - Understanding Evolution Percy writes: But you seem to be arguing away from the topic. The question is the difference between micro and macroevolution. You seem to want to argue whether macroevolution ever happens. Well there is no point in defining macro-evolution if it doesn't happen.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2317 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Big_Al35 writes:
Funny, when I searched google scholar, this article was on the first page:
All references to evolution on bacteria are referred to as micro not macro. A simple google search will tell you that. Macro-and microevolution of bacteria in symbiotic systems From the abstract:
quote: All micro-evolution, indeed...
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Big_Al35 writes: All references to evolution on bacteria are referred to as micro not macro. A simple google search will tell you that. Here is one exampleExamples of microevolution - Understanding Evolution A simple Google search of "bacteria macroevolution" returns 148,000 results, and of "bacteria speciation" returns 740,000 results. Perhaps you had a typo when you tried it?
Well there is no point in defining macro-evolution if it doesn't happen. How can you tell whether some undefined thing has ever happened? As I said before, if you yourself are defining macroevolution differently from everyone else here then there's no point in arguing whether it has ever happened. But again, whether macroevolution has ever happened is not the topic of this thread. No one here is trying to avoid discussion of the evidence for macroevolution. There are some old threads about macroevolution that are still open:
Or you could propose a new thread. But I think all this thread is trying to do is reach a consensus on the definition. If you go back to Message 1 you'll see that RAZD was hoping to explore the distinction between micro and macroevolution at quite a detailed level. --Percy
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Big_Al35 Member (Idle past 822 days) Posts: 389 Joined: |
Percy writes: A simple Google search of "bacteria macroevolution" returns 148,000 results, and of "bacteria speciation" returns 740,000 results. Perhaps you had a typo when you tried it? Sorry, no typos. Here is another example which illustrates my point that even articles discussing macroevolution in bacteria are unsure about the definition and indicate that it might just aswell be called microevolution. http://carm.org/...ctually-observing-macroevolution-bacteria
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Here is another example which illustrates my point that even articles discussing macroevolution in bacteria are unsure about the definition and indicate that it might just aswell be called microevolution. The point of the summary at the link you point to is that definitions do matter, and it is a matter of definition as to whether certain examples of evolution should be called macroevolution. You are doing a great job of demonstrating RAZD's point.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Hi Al,
This thread is about how science distinguishes between micro and macroevolution. Providing bare links to creationist websites in an attempt to show that macroevolution doesn't happen is a) contrary to the Forum Guidelines (please, no bare links); and b) irrelevant (it's not what this topic is about). Do you have anything to say about the definition of macroevolution? --Percy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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BigAl writes: Here is another example which illustrates my point that even articles discussing macroevolution in bacteria are unsure about the definition and indicate that it might just aswell be called microevolution. You mean that some random egit from a Christian ministry says this:
Question: Are scientists actually observing macroevolution as it happens in bacteria? Response: That depends on how "macroevolution" is defined. Scientists have seen bacteria exchange genetic material. They have seen bacteria become antibiotic resistant. They have seen bacteria become bigger from mutations. But have they ever seen bacteria become anything other than bacteria? No. Have they ever seen one type of bacteria, such as E.coli, become some other type of bacteria that is not (in this case) E.coli? No, they haven't. In fact, with over a hundred years of work with E.coli behind us, (at 20 minutes per generation time, that's over 2 1/5 MILLION generations of E.coli minimum that have been witnessed), and despite forcing or encouraging mutations, they still cannot get anything but E.coli. So it's your call. Is that macroevolution? By some evolutionists' standards it qualifies. Yup, bacteria are still bacteria. Weird that.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Here is another example which illustrates my point that even articles discussing macroevolution in bacteria are unsure about the definition and indicate that it might just aswell be called microevolution. Largely this reflects the ambiguity of what constitutes a "species" - by definition, a "reproductive community" - among asexual organisms. It doesn't have anything to do with whether macroevolution can happen in bacteria. While it's frequently ambiguous whether any two related bacteria are the same species or not, there's no question that there are multiple species of bacteria. It's a bit like asking when it started raining. There's no ambiguity between clear skies and a torrential downpour, but is it "raining" when you're splashed by a single drop? Most people would say "no." Two drops, probably the same. Fifty drops? Definitely raining. Five drops? Maybe, maybe not. The transition from "not raining" to "raining" is ambiguous even though the beginning and end of the transition is completely obvious; everybody can tell whether or not it's raining. Species in bacteria are the same way - exactly the situation we would expect if species-level macroevolution was underway in bacteria, as we know that it is.
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Big_Al35 Member (Idle past 822 days) Posts: 389 Joined: |
Percy writes: Do you have anything to say about the definition of macroevolution? Yes....I will say this: The pursuit of a definition for macroevolution is a waste of my time. Edited by Big_Al35, : No reason given.
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