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Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 136 of 349 (671122)
08-22-2012 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
08-22-2012 10:46 AM


Re: Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
Phat writes:
As to whether people hold false beliefs, I can say, if i read your question correctly, that its best not to believe in demons whether they in fact exist or not.
If demons do exist and have a demonstrable effect on reality then denying that they exist because we don't like the idea of such things would just be an act of denial. It would be like denying that viruses exist because I don't like them.
Phat writes:
Whether or not demons in fact exist, belief in them is not productive nor conducive to a rational approach to life.
I don't see how denying reality is conducive to a rational approach to life. Fortunately we don't have to deny reality in order to reject the notion of demons as particularly likely.
Phat writes:
In my opinion, a demon can not influence a human to do anything that that human had not previously decided to do anyway.
If the events and experiences that are attributed to demons would occur whether demons exist or not then on what basis are demons being postulated as the cause of anything at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 08-22-2012 10:46 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 08-22-2012 4:26 PM Straggler has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 137 of 349 (671148)
08-22-2012 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Straggler
08-22-2012 12:25 PM


Re: Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
Straggler writes:
If the events and experiences that are attributed to demons would occur whether demons exist or not then on what basis are demons being postulated as the cause of anything at all?
In my case, there is no logical explanation for the multiple voice reply that we heard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Straggler, posted 08-22-2012 12:25 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by jar, posted 08-22-2012 5:19 PM Phat has replied
 Message 139 by Straggler, posted 08-22-2012 5:43 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 138 of 349 (671157)
08-22-2012 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Phat
08-22-2012 4:26 PM


Re: Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
HUH?
How about trickery or hallucination or just plain lying?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 08-22-2012 4:26 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 08-23-2012 7:29 AM jar has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 139 of 349 (671159)
08-22-2012 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Phat
08-22-2012 4:26 PM


Re: Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
Phat writes:
In my case, there is no logical explanation for the multiple voice reply that we heard.
So, whatever you believe may have caused this event, do you consider belief in demons as the cause of such an experience to be a reasonable conclusion?
Do you consider those who believe that demons are responsible for similar experiences or events to hold false beliefs?
What do you think forms the basis of these beliefs if it is not based on the actual existence of demons?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 08-22-2012 4:26 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Phat, posted 08-23-2012 7:33 AM Straggler has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 140 of 349 (671206)
08-23-2012 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by jar
08-22-2012 5:19 PM


Re: Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
jar writes:
How about trickery or hallucination or just plain lying?
Although I cannot rule out trickery 100%, I will say that based on my understanding of my three friends present, their behavior and corroboration of the events, and the sincerity of their testimonies, I highly doubt that they tricked me. Possible, but unlikely.
Hallucination? It would have had to have been a shared hallucination, also highly unlikely.
Lying? I can state that I myself am not lying...to the best of my knowledge. I cannot vouch for anyone else. (Though again, I judge them as honest to the best of their capability.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by jar, posted 08-22-2012 5:19 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 141 of 349 (671207)
08-23-2012 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Straggler
08-22-2012 5:43 PM


Re: Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
Straggler writes:
So, whatever you believe may have caused this event, do you consider belief in demons as the cause of such an experience to be a reasonable conclusion?---Reasonable? No...hardly reasonable at all. I admit to bias concerning that conclusion, but only because of the highly unusual circumstances of the event.
Do you consider those who believe that demons are responsible for similar experiences or events to hold false beliefs? Not false, except where falsifiability has been proven and established.
What do you think forms the basis of these beliefs if it is not based on the actual existence of demons? Again...bias and a desire to "prove" to others that the supernatural could be real. I get extremely uncomfortable dismissing experiences that I have had based solely on an inability to prove and verify them scientifically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Straggler, posted 08-22-2012 5:43 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Straggler, posted 08-23-2012 10:33 AM Phat has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 142 of 349 (671222)
08-23-2012 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Phat
08-23-2012 7:33 AM


Re: Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
I'm not asking about proof and falsification here.
I am asking if you consider those who believe in the existence of demons to be wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Phat, posted 08-23-2012 7:33 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 08-23-2012 3:16 PM Straggler has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 143 of 349 (671254)
08-23-2012 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Straggler
08-23-2012 10:33 AM


Re: Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
Straggler writes:
I am asking if you consider those who believe in the existence of demons to be wrong?
No. I dont feel that a belief can be wrong. Misguided, perhaps. Illogical? Most certainly. Psychotic? Occasionally. Wrong? Definitely not. In my world view, absence of evidence must never be linked with evidence of absence. Science and proof are not the only tools in the satchel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Straggler, posted 08-23-2012 10:33 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Straggler, posted 08-24-2012 8:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 144 of 349 (671292)
08-24-2012 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
08-23-2012 3:16 PM


Wrongness
Phat writes:
No. I dont feel that a belief can be wrong.
Dude that is bonkers. And, if you think about it, not a logically consistent approach.
There are some who believe that president Obama is the anti-Christ. There are some people who believe he is not the anti-Christ. If president Obama is not the anti-Christ those who believe that he is the anti-Christ are wrong. If president Obama does turn out to be the anti-Christ those who believe he is not the anti-Christ - Are wrong.
Either way there are currently people who hold a belief regarding president Obama’s status as the anti-Christ which is wrong.
Likewise demons either exist or they don’t. So there are necessarily people out there who hold beliefs about the existence of demons which are wrong (some believe they exist and some believe they don't)
Phat writes:
In my case, there is no logical explanation for the multiple voice reply that we heard.
Yet you say you don’t believe this event was caused by demons. Which means you must consider those who believe that a demon did cause this event are wrong in this belief. Regardless of who is right or wrong somebody’s belief regarding this matter has to be wrong. You can’t believe opposite things and both be correct. That makes no sense whatsoever.
I am not sure why you are so resistant to the idea that a belief can be wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 08-23-2012 3:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2012 9:27 AM Straggler has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 145 of 349 (671297)
08-24-2012 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Straggler
08-24-2012 8:40 AM


Re: Wrongness
There are some who believe that president Obama is the anti-Christ. There are some people who believe he is not the anti-Christ. If president Obama is not the anti-Christ those who believe that he is the anti-Christ are wrong. If president Obama does turn out to be the anti-Christ those who believe he is not the anti-Christ - Are wrong.
Either way there are currently people who hold a belief regarding president Obama’s status as the anti-Christ which is wrong.
This whole idea that a belief can not be wrong is ludicrous. This belief pervades this site and has gotten me in trouble more than once.
From forum guidelines.
quote:
The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect.
Bullshit. Some beliefs are only worth derision and abuse.
Are the beliefs of a member of NAMBLA worthy of my respect. Neo-Nazi and Klan beliefs?
Beliefs should be ridiculed and tested. If a person can not support their beliefs then they should reexamine them. Happens to me all the time.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Straggler, posted 08-24-2012 8:40 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Straggler, posted 08-24-2012 9:35 AM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 147 by vimesey, posted 08-24-2012 9:43 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 146 of 349 (671298)
08-24-2012 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Theodoric
08-24-2012 9:27 AM


Re: Wrongness
I wouldn't have put it quite as belligerently but I agree in spirit.
But, to be fair, anyone who is a regular here can probably not be accused of refusing to engage with people who will challenge their beliefs.
i think what Phat said about belief is silly. But Phat remains 'one of the good guys' here all the same.......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2012 9:27 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 147 of 349 (671299)
08-24-2012 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Theodoric
08-24-2012 9:27 AM


Re: Wrongness
Beliefs should be ridiculed and tested.
Why is that the case ?
In some circumstances, I can agree - you cite neo-Nazi and Klan beliefs, and I would agree with you there.
But I think that we need to have a harm based assessment of beliefs, before we feel that there is an absolute need for them to be ridiculed and tested.
If someone believes in something which we feel is demonstrably wrong (YECism, demons, an athlete tying their shoes in a particular fashion to improve their chances of winning), then I think that we act disrespectfully in attacking those beliefs, unless the belief (or the desire to promulgate it in science lessons, for example) can cause harm to others.
Life's a difficult old course, a lot of the time, and if someone's belief helps them through it, without harming others, then I don't begrudge them that belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2012 9:27 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 08-27-2012 3:41 PM vimesey has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 148 of 349 (671571)
08-27-2012 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by vimesey
08-24-2012 9:43 AM


Re: Wrongness
If someone believes in something which we feel is demonstrably wrong ...
Demons can't be demonstrated to be wrong any more than they can be demonstrated to exist. When will you people understand that absence of evidence never proves evidence of absence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by vimesey, posted 08-24-2012 9:43 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Theodoric, posted 08-27-2012 4:36 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 150 by Straggler, posted 08-27-2012 4:58 PM Phat has replied
 Message 151 by jar, posted 08-27-2012 5:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 153 by vimesey, posted 08-28-2012 7:20 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 155 by ringo, posted 08-28-2012 12:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 176 by Tangle, posted 09-01-2012 8:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 149 of 349 (671580)
08-27-2012 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
08-27-2012 3:41 PM


Re: Wrongness
When will you people understand that absence of evidence never proves evidence of absence.
And when will you people understand that absence of evidence is evidence of well.. let see... uh..oh yeah. Nothing.
This whole idea that since there is no evidence we should seriously entertain the idea that something is possible isn't just ridiculous it is assinine.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 08-27-2012 3:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 150 of 349 (671584)
08-27-2012 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
08-27-2012 3:41 PM


Re: Wrongness
But demons either exist or they don't.
So regardless of whether we ever know whether demons exist or not some people are going to be wrong in their beliefs about the existence of demons aren't they?
Either those who believe demons do exist are wrong or those who believe they don't exist are wrong. We may never know which. But we do know for a fact that some beliefs are just factually wrong.
How can it be otherwise?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 08-27-2012 3:41 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Dogmafood, posted 08-27-2012 6:58 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 248 by Phat, posted 07-03-2014 3:21 PM Straggler has replied

  
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