Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 121 of 349 (671028)
08-21-2012 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by ringo
08-21-2012 12:00 PM


A god unto ourselves
Ringo writes:
If there was something real outside our rational logic, how would we know?
Even those who believe in demons are looking at real manifestations, usually "odd behavior". The only difference between a scientific approach and theirs is that they let their beliefs color their conclusions.
Agreed, but I also think that those who see no evidence allow the lack of evidence to color their conclusion that such an entity or phenomena cant exist.
Could it be that people who refuse to believe in God are so adamant on reliance of their own wisdom and understanding that they have, in effect, become a god unto themselves?(not suggesting demons, but.... )
Edited by Phat, : title

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 08-21-2012 12:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 08-21-2012 5:44 PM Phat has replied
 Message 126 by ringo, posted 08-21-2012 5:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 122 of 349 (671032)
08-21-2012 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
08-21-2012 5:31 PM


Re: A god unto ourselves
Many that believe in God also don't believe in demons.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 08-21-2012 5:31 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 08-21-2012 5:46 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 123 of 349 (671033)
08-21-2012 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by jar
08-21-2012 5:44 PM


Re: A god unto ourselves
jar writes:
Many that believe in God also don't believe in demons.
True, and I dont think that its necessarily helpful to believe in demons. Its like believing that evil is a force outside of us that we are powerless to correct. I prefer believing, however, that God is a force greater than myself in which I can rely when I myself am at the limits of my own efforts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 08-21-2012 5:44 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Straggler, posted 08-21-2012 5:53 PM Phat has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 124 of 349 (671034)
08-21-2012 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
08-21-2012 5:46 PM


Re: A god unto ourselves
Phat writes:
True, and I dont think that its necessarily helpful to believe in demons. Its like believing that evil is a force outside of us that we are powerless to correct. I prefer believing, however, that God is a force greater than myself in which I can rely when I myself am at the limits of my own efforts.
That seems awfully pick'n'mix. Isn't believing in good/God as a "force outside of us that we are powerless to correct" just a mirror image of that which you are rejecting demons for?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 08-21-2012 5:46 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 08-21-2012 5:57 PM Straggler has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 125 of 349 (671035)
08-21-2012 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Straggler
08-21-2012 5:53 PM


Re: A god unto ourselves
Yes I will admit that. I am of the belief, however, that it is a mistake to place our own wisdom and understanding at the top of our choices. I believe that people who reject the possibility of God have closed a door that they may someday need to access.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Straggler, posted 08-21-2012 5:53 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Straggler, posted 08-21-2012 6:04 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 126 of 349 (671036)
08-21-2012 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
08-21-2012 5:31 PM


Re: A god unto ourselves
Phat writes:
... I also think that those who see no evidence allow the lack of evidence to color their conclusion that such an entity or phenomena cant exist.
Claiming that something "can't exist" might be overstepping but there's no difference between the lack of evidence for demons and the lack of evidence for flying pigs; lack = lack.
Phat writes:
Could it be that people who refuse to believe in God are so adamant on reliance of their own wisdom and understanding that they have, in effect, become a god unto themselves?
I've never met anybody who "refused" to beleve in God. I've met some who would like to but can't. Either way, we have to rely on our own wisdom and understanding - and that of our fellow man - because nobody has ever found a God who will reliably do it for us. Remember Noah. He had to build his own ark.
Edited by ringo, : Addedamissingspace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 08-21-2012 5:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 127 of 349 (671038)
08-21-2012 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Phat
08-21-2012 5:57 PM


Re: A god unto ourselves
Phat writes:
I believe that people who reject the possibility of God have closed a door that they may someday need to access.
I would put people who reject the possibility of God in the same class as those who have rejected the possibility of the demons. Or the Immaterial Pink Unicorn etc. etc.
Personally I haven't rejected the possibility of any of these things
But I see little more reason to believe in the IPU than demons or God.
Phat - Do you reject the possibility of demons?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 08-21-2012 5:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 08-21-2012 6:41 PM Straggler has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 128 of 349 (671041)
08-21-2012 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Straggler
08-21-2012 6:04 PM


Belief is based on bias and preconceptions
I suppose that you and I have had different experiences in life. I have experienced direct evidence of something unexplainable...once a man who was being prayed over...in a living room...had several different voices at once come out of him...(no, there was no hidden recorder) and I clearly and directly heard this. At that same time, my hair was standing on end and I knew that the experience was unusual.
Thus, for me, IPUs and fairies and goblins remain as storybook fantasies, but God and/or the supernatural realm seem more real to me. Granted, I cant prove anything concrete about what I have experienced, and I will admit to drawing conclusions based on bias.
I will admit that I am predisposed to thinking that this stuff is probably true, largely based on opinions from people whom I know and trust that confirm such possibilities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Straggler, posted 08-21-2012 6:04 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Straggler, posted 08-22-2012 5:14 AM Phat has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 129 of 349 (671066)
08-22-2012 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
08-21-2012 6:41 PM


Re: Belief is based on bias and preconceptions
Presumably many of those who believe in the existence of demons have had experiences, or heard of events, which they attribute to the existence of demons.
Do you consider their belief in the existence of demons to be misplaced?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 08-21-2012 6:41 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 08-22-2012 10:13 AM Straggler has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 130 of 349 (671098)
08-22-2012 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Straggler
08-22-2012 5:14 AM


Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
It is too simplistic to simply attribute every good event or blessing in life to a (or the ) Diety and to blame every bad misfortune on a demon. A wise man chooses what, if anything to believe in based on his worldview, his experiences, and his bias and predispositions to a lesser degree.
When I had my otherworldly experience, I remember being awestruck and thinking to myself "Oh My God! Does this now mean that that entire book is actually real? I mean... real???? At that moment I was quite convinced that what I was experiencing was real enough, but in all honesty I had no idea whether the voices came from demons or from aliens or from a still unexplained and thus unnamed phenomenon. I was already involved in prayer with others, various christian rituals and thus my framework of definition was from the perspective of what I had been taught.
Personally, I wont simply believe in demons if for no other reason than to deny them the notoriety that they may well seek. All I know is that I experienced something that day that emerged from a living human being and was unlikely to have been caused by that person or any other collusion of human trickery. Assuming, thus, that what I experienced also was alive...but unsure what exactly it was.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Straggler, posted 08-22-2012 5:14 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Straggler, posted 08-22-2012 10:32 AM Phat has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 131 of 349 (671102)
08-22-2012 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Phat
08-22-2012 10:13 AM


Re: Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
In this thread I am less interested in your belief in God and it's basis than your position on demons and those who do believe in their existence.
Do you consider those who believe that demons are responsible for certain experiences or events to hold false beliefs?
What do you think forms the basis of these beliefs if it is not based on the actual existence of demons?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 08-22-2012 10:13 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 08-22-2012 10:46 AM Straggler has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 132 of 349 (671107)
08-22-2012 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Straggler
08-22-2012 10:32 AM


Re: Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
Straggler writes:
In this thread I am less interested in your belief in God and it's basis than your position on demons and those who do believe in their existence.
Do you consider those who believe that demons are responsible for certain experiences or events to hold false beliefs?
What do you think forms the basis of these beliefs if it is not based on the actual existence of demons?
Whether or not demons in fact exist, belief in them is not productive nor conducive to a rational approach to life. In my opinion, a demon can not influence a human to do anything that that human had not previously decided to do anyway. Demons can make the mental disease worse than it otherwise would have been, much as an infection can make a cold far worse than it otherwise would be if allowed to run its course unhindered. As to whether people hold false beliefs, I can say, if i read your question correctly, that its best not to believe in demons whether they in fact exist or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Straggler, posted 08-22-2012 10:32 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Theodoric, posted 08-22-2012 10:49 AM Phat has replied
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 08-22-2012 12:04 PM Phat has replied
 Message 136 by Straggler, posted 08-22-2012 12:25 PM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 133 of 349 (671108)
08-22-2012 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
08-22-2012 10:46 AM


Re: Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
In my opinion, a demon can not influence a human to do anything that that human had not previously decided to do anyway.
But your god can?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 08-22-2012 10:46 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Phat, posted 08-22-2012 10:55 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 134 of 349 (671110)
08-22-2012 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Theodoric
08-22-2012 10:49 AM


Re: Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
No, you have the power to deify your own intellect and follow your own piper...wherever he may end up leading you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Theodoric, posted 08-22-2012 10:49 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 135 of 349 (671121)
08-22-2012 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
08-22-2012 10:46 AM


Re: Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
Phat writes:
In my opinion, a demon can not influence a human to do anything that that human had not previously decided to do anyway
In that case, allow me to whip out Occam's Razor. If a demon can not influence a human to do anything that that human had not previously decided to do anyway - such as speaking in "otherworldly" voices - why do you need to postulate the existence of the demon at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 08-22-2012 10:46 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Phat, posted 09-20-2012 2:24 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 10-21-2014 9:44 AM ringo has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024