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Author Topic:   What type of biological life will more than likely be found on other planets?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 60 of 178 (670767)
08-18-2012 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Dogmafood
08-18-2012 7:00 PM


Re: Hands are Handy
No.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Dogmafood, posted 08-18-2012 7:00 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Dogmafood, posted 08-18-2012 7:06 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 178 (670769)
08-18-2012 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Dogmafood
08-18-2012 7:06 PM


Re: Hands are Handy
You are free to disagree with anything, but I see little evidence that intelligence offers any advantage or that it is a characteristic likely to be found in biological life on other planets.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Dogmafood, posted 08-18-2012 7:06 PM Dogmafood has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Blue Jay, posted 08-18-2012 10:11 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 65 of 178 (670772)
08-18-2012 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Dogmafood
08-18-2012 8:16 PM


Re: Accumulated Intelligence
Jury is still out, but I know of no species where there is evidence they have become more intelligent over time either.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Dogmafood, posted 08-18-2012 8:16 PM Dogmafood has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 68 of 178 (670775)
08-18-2012 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Blue Jay
08-18-2012 10:11 PM


Re: Hands are Handy
You are free to hold that belief, but I don't see any evidence that supports it. Exploiting a new food source is not an indication of intelligence that I can see.
As I have said many times, human intelligence is an outlier and so far the jury is out on whether intelligence will prove to be an advantage. Sure, humans have expanded into most environments thanks to technology and it does seem that we are the only species so far to actually develop the concept of technology. But are we more successful than cockroaches?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Blue Jay, posted 08-18-2012 10:11 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Blue Jay, posted 08-19-2012 12:40 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 75 of 178 (670797)
08-19-2012 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Blue Jay
08-19-2012 12:40 AM


Re: Hands are Handy
The issue is whether or not intelligence is advantageous and whether or not it is likely to be a characteristic of life found on other planets.
Yes, in the single example of humans, they, as a species developed technology and it is that technology, not their intelligence, that allowed them to spread.
I know of no way to tell if a human is smarter than a cephalopod or elephant or dolphin and we just ain't been here long enough to know if human intelligence is going to be an advantage.
But when discussing what life forms may be found elsewhere the overwhelming evidence is that the vast majority of successful life forms here on earth are NOT intelligent.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Blue Jay, posted 08-19-2012 12:40 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Blue Jay, posted 08-19-2012 10:54 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 76 of 178 (670798)
08-19-2012 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Dogmafood
08-19-2012 8:18 AM


Re: Accumulated Intelligence
I see no reason to think that.
What so many folk seem to be conflating with "intelligence" is the the effects of technology, including possibly the most important of all, the ability to transmit knowledge accumulated in the past into the future and distribute that knowledge non-verbally and indirectly.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Dogmafood, posted 08-19-2012 8:18 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Dogmafood, posted 08-19-2012 9:21 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 78 of 178 (670801)
08-19-2012 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Dogmafood
08-19-2012 9:21 AM


Re: Accumulated Intelligence
But you also do not get technology just because of intelligence. Technology is something separate and unique and limited to only a very few species.
Of all the species that have ever been on earth that we know of, only one branch has developed technology and that is not simply due to intelligence but also the fact that that branch lived on the surface of the earth, was bipedal and had opposable digits.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Dogmafood, posted 08-19-2012 9:21 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Dogmafood, posted 08-19-2012 10:20 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 178 (670825)
08-19-2012 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Dogmafood
08-19-2012 10:20 PM


Re: Accumulated Intelligence
But technology MAY be a help; it's far to soon to say that it is advantageous and the evidence shows that unintelligent critters have been far more successful than humans. Cockroaches and clams have been far better at survival than humans so far.
I think you mean Message 75where I said:
quote:
The issue is whether or not intelligence is advantageous and whether or not it is likely to be a characteristic of life found on other planets.
Yes, in the single example of humans, they, as a species developed technology and it is that technology, not their intelligence, that allowed them to spread.
I know of no way to tell if a human is smarter than a cephalopod or elephant or dolphin and we just ain't been here long enough to know if human intelligence is going to be an advantage.
But when discussing what life forms may be found elsewhere the overwhelming evidence is that the vast majority of successful life forms here on earth are NOT intelligent.
And correct, I know of no way to tell if a human is smarter than a cephalopod or elephant or dolphin.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Dogmafood, posted 08-19-2012 10:20 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Blue Jay, posted 08-19-2012 11:20 PM jar has replied
 Message 92 by Dogmafood, posted 08-20-2012 7:45 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 178 (670846)
08-20-2012 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Blue Jay
08-19-2012 10:54 PM


Re: Rare sapience
You are of course free to disagree with me, but so far you have not presented anything really convincing.
The topic is what type of life will more than likely be found on other planets?
Even if you include beaver dams monkeys, apes and crows, you still have not established that intelligence is an advantage or likely to evolve.
If you look at the one sample we know of and draw up a two column list of the intelligent technology critters and the unintelligent non technology critters, which list will be longer?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Blue Jay, posted 08-19-2012 10:54 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Blue Jay, posted 08-20-2012 1:50 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 86 of 178 (670847)
08-20-2012 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Straggler
08-20-2012 8:31 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
And all the evidence seems to show that we are not likely to find it.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Straggler, posted 08-20-2012 8:31 AM Straggler has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 87 of 178 (670848)
08-20-2012 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Blue Jay
08-19-2012 11:20 PM


Re: Accumulated Intelligence
All species compared to all hominids.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Blue Jay, posted 08-19-2012 11:20 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 89 of 178 (670883)
08-20-2012 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Blue Jay
08-20-2012 1:50 PM


Re: Rare sapience
Did you by any chance notice what the topic is?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Blue Jay, posted 08-20-2012 1:50 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Blue Jay, posted 08-20-2012 3:45 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 91 of 178 (670886)
08-20-2012 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Blue Jay
08-20-2012 3:45 PM


Re: Rare sapience
Honestly I'm not at all sure you have been commenting on the topic.
Let me try moving slowly.
Do you agree that so far we have only one sample of biological life, what evolved here on earth?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Blue Jay, posted 08-20-2012 3:45 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Blue Jay, posted 08-20-2012 11:34 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 93 of 178 (670903)
08-20-2012 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Dogmafood
08-20-2012 7:45 PM


Re: Accumulated Intelligence
Keeping this in mind, I am talking about where does this sort of intelligence come from. It comes down the evolutionary line and if it has evolved once in the universe then it has likely evolved more than once. In our case, intelligence has been selected billions of times in each tiny little step.
How can you possibly believe that we are not more intelligent than our evolutionary ancestors?
Because "knowledge" and "intelligence" are not synonymous. I do not think that those things really are an indication of "intelligence" or even "human intelligence" but rather of technology, in particular the technology that humans created at a given time that allowed knowledge to be accumulated and passed on even beyond the personal contact circle.
But that still does not show that intelligence is a major evolutionary advantage.
The fact that something happened once does not mean that it is likely to happen again, only that it CAN happen again.
Human intelligence is not all that great in my opinion.
The invention of the concept of technology, of recording and passing on knowledge not just to close associates but to others has allowed a large accumulation of knowledge; but that is not a measure of intelligence. In addition, it is not the general human population that adds new knowledge but a very, very small segment of humans. And even there the majority of humans remain really ignorant of the knowledge or tools, using only those advantages that do NOT require any of the characteristics Oni described or very much intelligence of any kind.
We have cash registers that calculate tax and how much change should be returned because the cashiers couldn't handle such tasks. We have politicians that try to limit how much and what knowledge can be taught. We have warnings on coffee lids that the coffee we just bought might be how, that we should not put our bodily orifices at the exhaust of Jet Skis, labels telling us not to stand above the top step of the ladder and back at that lid on my coffee, a suggestion to "drink here" at the hole in the lid.
Human intelligence evolved once in one line of the hominids, no other species has developed anything like our concept of technology or accumulating and dispersing knowledge.
That's over four billion year, about a third of the lifetime of the universe and out of millions if not billions of different species.
And if we look at the history of life on this earth, more intelligent species don't seem to have any particular advantage over less intelligent species. Other strategies seem to work equally well like high birth rates or having the biggest teeth or claws or being the biggest critter in the hood. Most everything in the sea eats the intelligent cuttle fish and octopus. Most everything in the jungle eats bonobos and chimpanzees. Elephants don't get eaten too often once they get to be the biggest critter out there. Few things attack crocks except the hippo that is even bigger and with bigger teeth.
There is no way I know of to accumulate intelligence.
If we ever do find other life it seems to me far more likely to be unintelligent. After all, most life here on earth has NO brain at all.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Dogmafood, posted 08-20-2012 7:45 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Dogmafood, posted 08-21-2012 7:37 AM jar has replied
 Message 99 by Straggler, posted 08-21-2012 8:07 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 100 of 178 (670939)
08-21-2012 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Blue Jay
08-20-2012 11:34 PM


Re: Rare sapience
I'm old and slow and so as I suggested let's take this one step at a time.
Do you agree that so far we have only one sample of biological life, what evolved here on earth?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Blue Jay, posted 08-20-2012 11:34 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Blue Jay, posted 08-21-2012 9:22 AM jar has replied

  
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