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Author Topic:   What type of biological life will more than likely be found on other planets?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 178 (670684)
08-17-2012 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by onifre
08-16-2012 2:01 PM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
We had the ability to make music before we came up with the instruments.
I understand that, but I am responding to your statement below [emphasis added by me]. Technology has everything to do with "going off on a guitar" like Jimi Hendrix.
onifre writes:
But I don't see what technology has to do with coming up with mathematical equations, having complex languague, making art as beautiful as Michael Angelo's works, and going off on a guitar like Hendrix?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 47 of 178 (670687)
08-17-2012 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Straggler
08-17-2012 9:13 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
As I said upthread, I'm not sure we would be capable of recognizing intelligence that is different than our own.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Straggler, posted 08-17-2012 9:13 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Straggler, posted 08-17-2012 11:22 AM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 48 of 178 (670697)
08-17-2012 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
08-17-2012 9:56 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
But we are talking about intelligence comparable to our own.
When the rest of us use the term intelligence we are talking about that which we humans possess and which we can recognise in other beings (alien or otherwise) through the abilities they have.
You for some bizarre reason are insisting that we call this technology (whether it actually involves anything that the rest of us would usually call technology or not)
Putting aliens to one side for a moment - How do you recognise intelligence (as opposed to technology) in other human beings?
Oni’s rather broad description seems as good a starting point as any
So it is unclear why you feel the need to apply your own meanings to words in order to disagree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 08-17-2012 9:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 49 of 178 (670718)
08-17-2012 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Straggler
08-17-2012 11:22 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
I really can't much help what you define things as, or your misrepresentation of what I say.
Oni's definition works for humans but not for recognizing intelligence.
And in case you missed it the thread is about alien life forms.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Straggler, posted 08-17-2012 11:22 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Straggler, posted 08-20-2012 8:31 AM jar has replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 50 of 178 (670721)
08-17-2012 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Taq
08-16-2012 3:42 PM


Re: Hands are Handy
Hi, Taq.
Taq writes:
With land and the right amount of gravity I think we can safely assume that flight will evolve since it evolved several times in the evolution of life on this planet.
I also think that flight will be a very common feature in alien life.
But, just to challenge it a little bit, we could also observe that only two phyla on Earth ever evolved flight. These were also the only two phyla that evolved an articulated skeleton and jointed limbs. But, most things with an articulated skeleton cannot fly.
So, logically, it could be argued that flight requires an articulated skeleton and jointed limbs. Given that these features have only evolved twice on Earth, it could be argued that most lineages will not evolve articulated skeletons or jointed limbs. It could also be argued that, even if there is an articulated skeleton and jointed limbs, most lineages will not evolve flight. From this perspective, it could plausibly be argued that flight will be uncommon.
Obviously, this is from the perspective of individual lineages, and not from the perspective of an entire evolutionary tree, which may change the game entirely, but it does provide an alternative perspective.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Taq, posted 08-16-2012 3:42 PM Taq has replied

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 Message 52 by Taq, posted 08-17-2012 4:46 PM Blue Jay has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 51 of 178 (670724)
08-17-2012 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Blue Jay
08-17-2012 3:04 PM


Re: Hands are Handy
Since we only have a single example of life evolving it's all we have to go with.
The vast majority of life here are unintelligent microbial critters. If we look at land critters most are unintelligent plant life. If we look at flying thingies most are unintelligent insects and microbes.
Is there any reason to think that pattern would not hold true universally?
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Taq, posted 08-17-2012 4:49 PM jar has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 52 of 178 (670725)
08-17-2012 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Blue Jay
08-17-2012 3:04 PM


Re: Hands are Handy
But, just to challenge it a little bit, we could also observe that only two phyla on Earth ever evolved flight. These were also the only two phyla that evolved an articulated skeleton and jointed limbs. But, most things with an articulated skeleton cannot fly.
We can also point out that an articulated skeleton evolved twice. There seems to be a general trend towards this condition for ambulatory terrestrial species.

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 Message 50 by Blue Jay, posted 08-17-2012 3:04 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 53 of 178 (670726)
08-17-2012 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
08-17-2012 3:33 PM


Re: Hands are Handy
Since we only have a single example of life evolving it's all we have to go with.
The vast majority of life here are unintelligent microbial critters. If we look at land critters most are unintelligent plant life. If we look at flying thingies most are unintelligent insects and microbes.
Is there any reason to think that pattern would not hold true universally?
Absolutely it should hold. I would be stunned if it didn't. Being unintelligent and simple seems to be a very successful evolutionary strategy. Once those niches are filled, however, life will start to branch out to other strategies.

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 Message 51 by jar, posted 08-17-2012 3:33 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 54 of 178 (670727)
08-17-2012 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Taq
08-17-2012 4:49 PM


branching out
So again, looking at the one example of branching out that we have, what we see yet again is still almost all unintelligent.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 53 by Taq, posted 08-17-2012 4:49 PM Taq has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 55 of 178 (670761)
08-18-2012 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Taq
08-17-2012 4:49 PM


Re: Hands are Handy
On the one side you have life springing up at every possible opportunity in every imaginable form. On the other, you have natural selection screening out the unsuited candidates. If intelligence is a beneficial characteristic (which I think is undeniable) then does it not stand to reason that organisms with more intelligence than their co-habitants will be more likely to survive? Just on average. Would this process not lead, on average, to a situation similar to what we have on earth where the most intelligent creature is dominant?
Obviously, there are many scenarios where the earth worm is more suited to survival than the human but having the ability to manipulate one's environment must count as a big plus. If this is true would it not lead to an accumulation of intelligent creatures over billions of years and billions of planets?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 08-18-2012 6:31 PM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 63 by NoNukes, posted 08-18-2012 7:44 PM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 71 by RAZD, posted 08-18-2012 11:47 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 56 of 178 (670763)
08-18-2012 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Dogmafood
08-18-2012 6:13 PM


Re: Hands are Handy
If intelligence is a beneficial characteristic (which I think is undeniable) then does it not stand to reason that organisms with more intelligence than their co-habitants will be more likely to survive?
But is that what we see?
Humans are a real outlier but even humans don't seem more likely to survive than cockroaches.
Elephants don't seem more likely to survive than snails.
Dolphins don't seem more likely to survive than clams.
Cephalopods don't seem to be more likely to survive than jellyfish.
Is intelligence really beneficial?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Dogmafood, posted 08-18-2012 6:13 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 57 of 178 (670764)
08-18-2012 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by jar
08-18-2012 6:31 PM


Re: Hands are Handy
Is intelligence really beneficial?
Intelligence is certainly not a prerequisite for survival.
But if you take 2 cephalopods and one is more intelligent than the other, which is more likely to survive any particular environment?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 08-18-2012 6:31 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 08-18-2012 6:49 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 58 of 178 (670765)
08-18-2012 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Dogmafood
08-18-2012 6:40 PM


Re: Hands are Handy
No idea.
If you take 2 humans and one is more intelligent than the other, which is more likely to survive any particular environment?
I have no idea there either. A bunch of the brightest most intelligent folk I knew were dead before they were 25.
Also irrelevant.
Biology and evolution involve populations not individuals.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Dogmafood, posted 08-18-2012 6:40 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Dogmafood, posted 08-18-2012 7:00 PM jar has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 59 of 178 (670766)
08-18-2012 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by jar
08-18-2012 6:49 PM


Re: Hands are Handy
Biology and evolution involve populations not individuals.
Indeed. So in a population of cephalopods or people, are the more intelligent members not more likely to survive any particular environment?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 08-18-2012 6:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 08-18-2012 7:04 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 60 of 178 (670767)
08-18-2012 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Dogmafood
08-18-2012 7:00 PM


Re: Hands are Handy
No.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Dogmafood, posted 08-18-2012 7:00 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Dogmafood, posted 08-18-2012 7:06 PM jar has replied

  
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