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Author Topic:   What type of biological life will more than likely be found on other planets?
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 31 of 178 (670579)
08-16-2012 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
08-16-2012 8:40 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
But you defined intelligence as ability to create art, music, do science, create mathematical equations and have complex communication.
No no, that's what I defined our intelligence as.
But, to satisfy NoNukes, it is certainly not the only LEVEL of intelligence. And in my opinion, if there is something more intelligent than us out there, it certainly is not by any reason that I can think of their limit to intelligence. For them, intelligence can be something so far beyond our understanding that it may even escape our reasoning or ability to recognize it.
How does a quadrupedal critter with nothing comparable to hands do those things?
Just to make the point again, they are not limited to their intelligence falling within our (or my - for the sake of this thread) measure of intelligence. They could be intelligent in a way far beyond anything we can recognize.
My example of the chimp helps understand what I'm saying. Chimps do not recognize our intelligence. They're not sitting around with other chimps in awe of our cars, and iPads, and waiting for pictures from the Hubble telescope saying "Boy these humans sure are smart." Likewise, there is no reason following that evidence that we could recognize the intelligence of a species smarter than us.
We could be chimps to them.
- Oni

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 32 of 178 (670584)
08-16-2012 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
08-16-2012 10:20 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
I question if the criteria he specified defines intelligence; I believe what he described is based on technology more than intelligence.
I would say they are technological advancements due to our intelligence.
But I don't see what technology has to do with coming up with mathematical equations, having complex languague, making art as beautiful as Michael Angelo's works, and going off on a guitar like Hendrix?
But again, I was only describing OUR intelligence and it most certainly does NOT mean it is the ONLY measure of intelligence. It is the highest measure on this planet, but else where it might be seen as intelligent as a chimp to us.
- Oni

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Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 33 of 178 (670586)
08-16-2012 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by NoNukes
08-16-2012 9:42 AM


Are you quite sure that dolphins do not create music or have complex communications?
I'm sure you can call it that. Like jar's examples of birds, I see that as beautiful music to my ears too. But they are not composing symphonies or writing Stairway to Heaven.
If you are going to define intelligence as separating us from every other animal (and plants too I'm sure) then you would seem to be using a rather biased screen to identify intelligent life on other planets as well.
I'm only trying to create a scale of intelligence from 0-humans for the sake of this thread and only for this thread.
I do believe dolphins have intelligence as do primates, dogs, whales, etc. In fact, some expert in a specific field of biology (like someone who works with beetles) could probably convince me that they show some signs of intelligence, and I would agree. I think most things have some level of it.
- Oni

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 34 of 178 (670588)
08-16-2012 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by onifre
08-16-2012 12:02 PM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
Yet you said:
quote:
For the sake of "drawing a line" lets call intelligence the ability to create art, music, do science, create mathematical equations and have complex communication.
I contend that we cannot draw such a line when talking about intelligence.
Jimi created using a guitar, wrote using pencil and paper (and sometimes a fountain pen), Michelangelo used tools, bought blocks of quarried stone, paint, scaffolding and his art is totally technology derived.
I'm not sure that we are yet capable of understanding or maybe even recognizing intelligence that is not based on human perceptions, location, environment and technology.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 35 of 178 (670596)
08-16-2012 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
08-16-2012 12:13 PM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
I contend that we cannot draw such a line when talking about intelligence.
And I agree. There is no limit to what intelligence can be. But on this planet that's what the highest level of intelligence is.
So for this thread, I'm only making an arbitrary point where we can say this is intelligent this is not intelligent. But just for the thread.
I'm not sure that we are yet capable of understanding or maybe even recognizing intelligence that is not based on human perceptions, location, environment and technology.
That's what I was explaing with the chimp example, that we are probably not capable of recognizing an intelligence far greater than ours just as a chimp does not recognize our intelligence.
I don't think we disagree on anything. It just seems you're not accepting that for this thread I've set up an arbitrary scale for intelligence.
- Oni

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 36 of 178 (670597)
08-16-2012 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
08-16-2012 8:40 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
dbl post
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 37 of 178 (670598)
08-16-2012 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
08-16-2012 8:40 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
How does a quadrupedal critter with nothing comparable to hands do those things?
By some method that we cannot full understand, yet.
Why would there need to be a limit on how to do those things? I don't think humans have cornered the market on any of that - if in fact intelligence is a likely trait that evolves typically in a biological system. I still remain very skeptical about that.
- Oni

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 38 of 178 (670604)
08-16-2012 1:01 PM


Hands are Handy
In my opinion, evolution on our own planet is a great model for what we would expect for life elsewhere. More specifically, convergent evolution holds the evidence we need.
For example, eyes evolved independently in several different lineages. We would also expect life on other planets to have eyes. Wings also evolved in several different lineages, from insects to huge flying reptiles. It doesn't matter if you have 6 legs and an exoskeleton or 4 legs and an internal skeleton, wings are advantageous, as are eyes.
At the same time, these features require a nervous system, a way of coordinating sensory input and the firing of the musclature, at least for multicelluar organisms (there are single celled organisms with "eyes"). We can also see that intelligence has also evolved independently in several lineages. A great example is cephalopods. The ancestor of molluscs probably did not have a complex set of ganglia, or anything approaching what you would consider intelligentce. However, cuttlefish are relatively intelligent predators that communicate with each other through a language of colors expressed by their chromatophores. They have a rather well developed central ganglia and nervous system. The only thing really holding them back is the lack of myelin sheaths around their axons.
So why did our lineage, including our ape cousins and even our more distantly related primate cousins, become so intelligent? I think it comes down to our ability to use tools, to manipulate the environment around us. Other lineages lack this ability. Cetaceans can not grab rocks and use them to bang open molluscs that they would otherwise not be able to get to. Having hands makes all of the difference, IMHO. Without hands any further increase in intelligence can not be used.
If an ape level of intelligence were to evolve on another planet I believe that this lineage would need something like our hands. Hands allow us to develop technologies. An increase in intelligence allowing us to communicate these technologies to further generations will also be selected for. Even in chimp groups we see one generation teaching tool use to the next generation. What we see in such lineages is a selection of learned behavior instead of instinctual behavior. This is also a very important step, IMHO.
On a more philosophical note, we still don't know if a human level of intelligence is a good adaptation in the long run. We have built technology that is capable of wiping out our entire species. For all we know, this type of evolved intelligence is a dead end. Perhaps it self desctructs more often thant it doesn't. Human like intelligence may be a candle that burns very bright for a very brief time on the scale of evolutionary time lines. What we may find on other planets is archaeological evidence for cultures that reached our level of technology and then disappeared soon afterwards.
Or maybey everything will work out just fine and we will all have flying cars within the next decade!!! I NEED FLYING CARS!! WHY CAN'T THEY GIVE ME FLYING CARS!!! hehehe

Replies to this message:
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greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3426 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 39 of 178 (670608)
08-16-2012 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Taq
08-16-2012 1:01 PM


Re: Hands are Handy
We can look at the steps in the evolution of intelligence to see what is common and what would be likely on other planets. I won't deal with the steps up to a sheep like intelligence.
Predators of sheep such as lions need a certain amount of intelligence more than the sheep. Omnivores such as monkeys that must be able to remember a very changing food source need a certain intelligence. Animals that must wander far, such as elephants, need a greater intelligence, especially to remember where to go in a drought that last happened 50 years ago.
One of the strongest drives for even higher intelligence is the ability, such as dolphins or killer whales to develop different food sources. This develops different cultures. Another driver of intelligence is living in packs and the need to cooperate in things like hunts. Now, communication is essential.
It is these particular forces (and others I haven't mentioned) that would drive intelligence on other planets. What, though, drives the intelligence the last steps that enable the beings to develop a civilization that enable them to leave the planet? Fire? tool making? Looking at these systems that explain parrots and pigs intelligence would give us the rules for ET.
Notice that if birds and mammals and octopi have all developed a moderately high intelligence, the package doesn't matter too much.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 178 (670609)
08-16-2012 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by onifre
08-16-2012 12:02 PM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
and going off on a guitar like Hendrix?
Not that I am agreeing with jar on this, but no technology means no guitar, and certainly no electric guitar.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw

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Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 41 of 178 (670611)
08-16-2012 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Taq
08-16-2012 1:01 PM


Re: Hands are Handy
In my opinion, evolution on our own planet is a great model for what we would expect for life elsewhere. More specifically, convergent evolution holds the evidence we need.
For example, eyes evolved independently in several different lineages. We would also expect life on other planets to have eyes. Wings also evolved in several different lineages, from insects to huge flying reptiles. It doesn't matter if you have 6 legs and an exoskeleton or 4 legs and an internal skeleton, wings are advantageous, as are eyes.
Certainly the ability to detect light waves will be very likely, since I would have to imagine that a planet would need that level of energy coming from the Sun to even be able to have sustainable life of any kind. It seems likely any organisms on that planet would then interact with these light waves in some way giving rise to the "eye".
But wings I'd say require a little more than just the Sun. Wings require land, since flight (exept for a flying fish) seems to evolves from land animals. So I would put wings equal to detecting light. But that's just a distinction I'm making.
I would add, once there is land, and before wings, you get "legs" of the various types we see on Earth. Which I see as basically, the need to get around the environment to increase food supply and mating potential, drives the need for the mechanism to do so.
So can we roughly say, if there is land of some kind (and to me I can see it being a big if), first we need to see, then we need a method to get around - first comes legs of some kind, then came flight of some kind - and once this was acheived, arms and that type of dexterity came about?
Without hands any further increase in intelligence can not be used.
It seems for now, to be the last on the line in the model I roughly created - so it makes sense that it's so valuable in the emergence of intelligence.
On a more philosophical note, we still don't know if a human level of intelligence is a good adaptation in the long run. We have built technology that is capable of wiping out our entire species. For all we know, this type of evolved intelligence is a dead end. Perhaps it self desctructs more often thant it doesn't. Human like intelligence may be a candle that burns very bright for a very brief time on the scale of evolutionary time lines. What we may find on other planets is archaeological evidence for cultures that reached our level of technology and then disappeared soon afterwards.
Yeah, or maybe even not getting out of Africa, when it was said there were only 2000 of our species left (Or something like that, not quite sure of those numbers. But something close to that.)
Or maybey everything will work out just fine and we will all have flying cars within the next decade!!! I NEED FLYING CARS!! WHY CAN'T THEY GIVE ME FLYING CARS!!! hehehe
I know right?! I'll settle for a fuckin hoverboard at this point!
- Oni

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 Message 38 by Taq, posted 08-16-2012 1:01 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 42 of 178 (670612)
08-16-2012 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by NoNukes
08-16-2012 1:49 PM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
Not that I am agreeing with jar on this, but no technology means no guitar, and certainly no electric guitar.
Right, but a technology due to intelligence. We had the ability to make music before we came up with the instruments.
- Oni

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 43 of 178 (670629)
08-16-2012 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by onifre
08-16-2012 1:55 PM


Re: Hands are Handy
But wings I'd say require a little more than just the Sun.
Indeed. I was thinking about this a little bit more, and there are other parameters. First, you need a planet about the size of ours. If gravity is too high then flying is just too ineffecient. If the planet is too small then it eventually cools, loses its magnetic field, and then loses its atmosphere. This is what happened to Mars.
With land and the right amount of gravity I think we can safely assume that flight will evolve since it evolved several times in the evolution of life on this planet.
And like wings, intelligence has increased in several lineages indepent of one another.
It seems for now, to be the last on the line in the model I roughly created - so it makes sense that it's so valuable in the emergence of intelligence.
We could use a dragster as an analogy. The top fuel dragsters have around 10,000 horsepower. They are very, very impressive. However, this horsepower would not mean squat if there was no way to transfer that energy to the track. That is why dragsters do not use the same tires that a Prius uses.
I think that the evolution of intelligence is like the example above. You can't select for more intelligence unless there is a way for that intelligence to be used, a way to transfer that horsepower to the track. Our hands are definitely a good example of this. They are extremely flexible and allow us to make any tool we want (within reason). We can even see how the wrist and hand morphology changed during human evolution to allow for more flexibility and better manipulation of tools. For example, we can touch the tip of our thumb with the tip of our little finger. Other apes can't do that. This allows us to hold a stick parallel with our forearm, something else that a chimp can not do. It would seem to me that tool use and tool making are very important for evolving an intelligence like ours.

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 44 of 178 (670630)
08-16-2012 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Taq
08-16-2012 3:42 PM


other considerations
There are a bunch of other considerations.
For example several of the Cephalopods are remarkably intelligent and have manipulating arms that are even better and more versatile than the human hand/wrist set up, better vision, a much higher content communications system and are exceptionally intelligent problem solvers but they are short lived and never developed a method of transferring knowledge between generations.
That is extremely important.
So two more criteria we should probably consider is how long the individual lives and whether there is a method of transferring knowledge over generations.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 45 of 178 (670682)
08-17-2012 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
08-16-2012 9:52 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
If everything so far discussed constitutes "technology" as far as you are concerned can you give me an example of something that you do think is indicative of "intelligence" rather than "technology"...?
How are we going to recognise intelligence if not in terms of these sorts of abilities?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 08-16-2012 9:52 AM jar has replied

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