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Author | Topic: Why would God write a book of lies and why would you worship such a being? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3976 Joined: |
Everyone - Please see (again even) my message 2.
The "lies" or "errors" in the Bible are not the issue in this topic. This is a ""there are errors", now what?" sort of topic. Please try to work with FEY and the moderators, not against us. Maybe even take a break until FEY posts his 3rd message. Gotta do a radio show now. Adminnemooseus Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Change an "is" to an "are".Or something like that.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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Why should anyone believe that Christ's atonement is actually able to save anyone if in the same book that is written in, there are stories that are verifiably false? If I bound the gospels in the same volume as a copy of Alice In Wonderland, would that make them less credible? If I bound them in the same volume as something readily verifiable, such as the phone book, would that make them more credible? Well then --- the Bible is only "the same book" in that fairly weak sense. One guy wrote one bit, one guy wrote another, another guy wrote another, and so on. This is why the Bible is written in such a hodgepodge of forms and in three different languages. Then one guy decided that they should be compiled together and called "the Bible", and another guy decided that different works should go into the compilation and different works should be left out, and a third guy disagreed with the first two ... So ...
Christianity is about trusting in Christ for salvation. You cannot trust that Christ's saving work on your behalf actually happened or is good enough to do the job if you cannot trust the author of statements to that effect. So ...who's "the author"? Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 613 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
dradequate writes: If I bound the gospels in the same volume as a copy of Alice In Wonderland, would that make them less credible? If I bound them in the same volume as something readily verifiable, such as the phone book, would that make them more credible? Well then --- the Bible is only "the same book" in that fairly weak sense. One guy wrote one bit, one guy wrote another, another guy wrote another, and so on. This is why the Bible is written in such a hodgepodge of forms and in three different languages. Then one guy decided that they should be compiled together and called "the Bible", and another guy decided that different works should go into the compilation and different works should be left out, and a third guy disagreed with the first two ... The writers of the New Testament quote just about every book of the Old Testament. The writers of the New Testaments ask such question as "What doth the scriptures saith?". They treat all the books of the Old Testament as one whole work and equally authoritative. Those same writers tell me that Christ died for my sins and that sacrifice is wholly sufficient for my salvation. If they are wrong about all the books of the bible being equally authoritative, why should I believe that are not wrong about the sufficiency of Christs sacrifice?
dradequate writes: God. Why? When Peter tried to prevent Christ from dying on the cross, Jesus replied "Get thee behind me Satan". Most people would say that Peter was the author of the words saying that Christ should avoid dying. According to Jesus himself, Satan was the author of those words.
So ...who's "the author"?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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The writers of the New Testament quote just about every book of the Old Testament. The writers of the New Testaments ask such question as "What doth the scriptures saith?". They treat all the books of the Old Testament as one whole work and equally authoritative. Those same writers tell me that Christ died for my sins and that sacrifice is wholly sufficient for my salvation. If they are wrong about all the books of the bible being equally authoritative, why should I believe that are not wrong about the sufficiency of Christs sacrifice? If that's your reason, then you're right; you shouldn't.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
foreveryoung writes: The writers of the New Testament quote just about every book of the Old Testament. The writers of the New Testaments ask such question as "What doth the scriptures saith?". They treat all the books of the Old Testament as one whole work and equally authoritative. Those same writers tell me that Christ died for my sins and that sacrifice is wholly sufficient for my salvation. HiGlad you're back. How many sermons have you heard referring to the "Good Samaritan" or the "Prodigal Son". If you were to take the sermon at face value you would conclude that it was actual events that were being referred to. Even now it is logical to refer to Adam as being a specific historical individual. It is done in order to represent a greater truth. Just because the Hebrew Scriptures are constantly being referred to in the NT does not mean that they were understood to be historical. Even Josephus when writing about the Torah said that Moses wrote with great metaphors.
foreveryoung writes: If they are wrong about all the books of the bible being equally authoritative, why should I believe that are not wrong about the sufficiency of Christs sacrifice? According to the Gospels the message is not about you and your salvation. Salvation is actually just a side issue. The Gospel message is that Jesus has established His Kingdom on Earth. This Kingdom is led by a Servant King who calls on His followers to serve the creation lovingly. Remember Christ's command is to love God and love neighbour, and even further to love our enemies. Remember what Paul says in Galations 5. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." The message is not just about me and my salvation. It is as a Christian that I have been given a job to do, which is to reflect God's love to the world. The NT is very clear when it tells us that we aren't to judge. It is God who judges. As Paul says in 1 Cor 4.,
quote: This message can be understood from the Bible without it all being read as inerrant. As I said the story of the "Good Samaritan" is just as authoritative whether it actually happened or not. The story of the "Great Flood" tells us that in the end God loves us and doesn't give up on us. That is an authoritative message whether it actually happened or not. God is not dependent on the Bible. The religion is called Christianity. It is supposed to be Christ centred not Bible centred. The question that essentially needs to be answered is whether Jesus is alive or dead. If Jesus was truly resurrected then we are on the right track. If Jesus was not bodily resurrected then as Paul tells us our faith is in vain. If Jesus was resurrected it is true whether or not the flood is historical, whether or not there was such a place as the Garden of Eden etc. There is no certainty. If there was certainty then we would not be able to freely choose to have hearts that love unselfishly. There is considerable ambiguity and uncertainty in the Bible and there is nothing wrong with that. Even the Bible tells us that Jesus is the word of God. It's Christianity not Biblianity. Welcome back. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
When Peter tried to prevent Christ from dying on the cross, Jesus replied "Get thee behind me Satan".
I'm puzzled that you cannot see this as metaphor. If your close friend said to you something similar to "Get thee behind me Satan", you surely would not take that as intended literally.Jesus was a liberal hippie
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 613 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
nwr writes: I'm puzzled that you cannot see this as metaphor. If your close friend said to you something similar to "Get thee behind me Satan", you surely would not take that as intended literally.
My friend is not an eternal being and the creator of the universe either and has never met Satan in person.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 613 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
gdr writes: According to the Gospels the message is not about you and your salvation. Salvation is actually just a side issue. Actually, the salvation of God's elect is the central focus of the gospels.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 613 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
nwr writes: It is the wrong question. Both you, and the owner of that Doubting Thomas blog, are asking whether or why you can trust the Bible. But what would you thereby be trusting? I would be trusting that God is not a liar. Lunatics go around saying God told me this or that or to build this church. Oral Roberts used to be famous for such proclamations and I think his son rectal did as well. The point is that anyone can make such a claim. God tells us that he speaks to us in his word. If his word is untrustworthy then so is he. Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given. Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given. Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2325 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined:
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foreveryoung writes:
If they are wrong about that, maybe they are wrong about the need to be saved? Why Assume the need to be saved first, and then assume Jesus' sacrifice to be insufficien?. Why not assume there's no need for salvation, see the lessons Jesus taught and learn from them?
If they are wrong about all the books of the bible being equally authoritative, why should I believe that are not wrong about the sufficiency of Christs sacrifice?
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
foreveryoung writes: Actually, the salvation of God's elect is the central focus of the gospels. In one sense it is about being saved, but the point about being saved is that one is saved for a purpose. The purpose is to reflect God's love into the creation. If you make all about you personally getting on the right side of God you have turned Christ's message of unselfish sacrificial love completely around and made it all about self love. I suggest you don't just read the Bible with the mindset that is preached within your specific church body. Please read what it actually says. Read the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew chap's 5 to 7. This for example is from Matthew 7. quote: There is nothing in this that talks about getting your theology right so that you will get on the good side of God. The gospel message is the message of the "Kingdom of God" or in Mathew "The Kingdom of Heaven" being established by the Messiah and the kingdom is all about having hearts that love unselfishly and sacrificially. When your understanding of the Bible is Christ centred as opposed to being Bible centred then the Bible comes into focus and it can be used by God in the way Paul talks about in 2nd Timothy. If the Bible is understood properly God can and will speak through it and you no longer have to rationalize the loving God we see incarnate in Jesus with the god that wants to have his people stoning to death some poor sap who picked up firewood on the Sabbath. Does it really make sense that a loving God would create us with reason then ask us to throw reason out the window when it comes to understanding Him and what He desires of us?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
Hi foreveryoung,
The writers of the New Testament quote just about every book of the Old Testament. The writers of the New Testaments ask such question as "What doth the scriptures saith?". They treat all the books of the Old Testament as one whole work and equally authoritative. Just because they quote the OT does not imply that they regard it as one single work. At the time the NT was written, the older scriptures would not have been regarded as a single book, as they sometimes - erroneously - are today. Further, if mere quoting of a scriptural passage is supposed to mean that God approves the entire work, then you have problems, as the NT also quotes the apocryphal Book of Enoch;
quote: The author of this epistle quotes the Book of Enoch there and attributes it to the biblical patriarch himself. He seems to approve of it and regard it as sacred and prophetic. Does this mean that it is in some way directed by God? If so, it's problematic to say the least, since 1 Enoch is an explicitly flat-Earth book, full of craziness and error. What do you say; is 1 Enoch "God-breathed"? If not, then how can the same kind of argument support the divinity of the OT? Mutate and Survive
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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God tells us that he speaks to us in his word. If his word is untrustworthy then so is he. Well, that got circular quickly. "God tells us in the Koran that he speaks to us through the Koran. If the Koran is untrustworthy than so is he." So are you going to (a) become a Muslim?(b) call God a liar? (c) stop employing logical fallacies?
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Until the scrolls were written, there were no Holy Scriptures (writings); but people worshiped God.
The story of Abraham shows us that people believed in God before anything was written in a scroll. They didn't rely on a book to tell them what to do or believe. Since Judaism is the foundation of early Christianity, I look to Jewish History for more insight. From Jewish history we learn that the Jews had the written law and an oral law.
Storytelling came before writing.
Storytelling and Spirituality in Judaism Hasidim praised and promoted storytelling because they appreciated its inspirational power. A person hearing a religious teaching may be impressed by its truth, but a tale about someone actually fulfilling the teaching can motivate the listener to action. Fiction can bring a teaching to life. It isn't a lie, it gives people a means to visualize. That's why I have no problem with fiction in the Bible. I try to understand what the author was trying to impart to his audience. Even when the NT writers quote from a fictional writing, I try to understand the point the writer is making to his audience. That's the take away. I also try to understand the literary devices employed by the writers, such as metaphors and hyperbole. These don't translate into lies, just creative ways to make a point and make the info more memorable. Since people believed in God before the existence of Holy Scriptures, I see no problem with still believing in God even with the knowledge that the Holy Scriptures contain storytelling. Now I do have a problem with dogma and tradition that claim to be based on what the Biblical writers were saying or teaching and it isn't. In my opinion, that is misleading.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 613 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
dradequate writes: Well, that got circular quickly. "God tells us in the Koran that he speaks to us through the Koran. If the Koran is untrustworthy than so is he." So are you going to (a) become a Muslim?(b) call God a liar? (c) stop employing logical fallacies? None of the above. You have to decide for yourself which book is more internally consistent and which matches what you understand a holy and righteous God to be. There can only be one true word from an eternal being if the sources claiming to be that word are in indisputable contradiction. I am not going to call God a liar even if there appears to be fiction in his word. Either I do not understand the style of literature being employed or it happened like it said and we don't know everything yet. Job did not understand why his world was crumbling around him and his friends told him to curse God. He refused to do so because he knew that he could not trust his own senses when it came to God. God finally proved himself to Job in the end, and Job was not crazy for trusting God.
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