|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 59 (9208 total) |
| |
Skylink | |
Total: 919,435 Year: 6,692/9,624 Month: 32/238 Week: 32/22 Day: 5/9 Hour: 0/2 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Did the coming of Jesus render the Law of the old testament null and void | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
The Non-Jewish half couldn't abandon what they didn't have. The fact that a non-Jewish half even existed is what this thread is all about!Love your enemies!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3708 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Show us that Paul or Peter followed the OT Laws any less than other Jews or Jewish Christians of the time. Romans 3:31
...Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 90 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
They ate with non Jews, ate unclean foods.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3708 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Scripture please!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 90 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Scripture shouldn't be needed if you've read the Bible but consider Acts 10. Peter goes into the house of Cornelius.
Paul as the Apostle to the Gentiles often went in and associated with non-Jews.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3708 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Associating with Non-Jews is not part of the OT Laws. Message 13
What you never knew about the Pharisees
This attitude caused Pharisees from the school of Shammai to hate all Gentiles, and left them with little regard even for Jews who didn’t follow them. (In one case, nearly attacking the sage Hillel for bringing a sacrifice to the Temple on a day they disapproved of.) In the days of Shammai, so passionate was their hatred of Gentiles that around 10 AD, Shammai passed 18 edicts specifically meant to force separation between Jews and Gentiles. The specifics of all these edicts have been lost, but among them was a prohibition of entering the house of a Gentile lest a Jew thereby become defiled, and even eating with or purchasing food from a Gentile was forbidden.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 90 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But keeping Kosher is, and that means not eating off plates a non-Jew used, not using utensils that an non-Jew used.
The key is not specific OT laws (unless you want to be pedantic) but is explicit in many Old Testament stories. The point of Ruth is that she was NOT Jewish; the point of the Good Samaritan was that he was NOT Jewish. And the idea that Jews and thus Jewish behavior and customs were different and specific goes somewhat further back than 10AD; rather it goes to the time of the exile to Babylon and the need to create a Jewish identity and even earlier to the creation of "Israel". Peter, Paul and others were trying to market a new franchise, and to do that they had to adopt the customs of their prospective converts. Even the idea of marketing a new NON-Jewish Jewish sect was new and the idea of letting in men in particular without the requirement of an initiation rite was a total change in orientation.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3708 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Support please!
Plates could be washed other than clay. Leviticus 11
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 90 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Some plates could be washed. But unless done by someone who understands the requirements it is not Kosher. And of course, any clay pot where an unclean critter has touched and anything that touches or is in such an unclean pot is unclean. That also applies to how food was prepared and stored, cooked, handled, what ingredients are included.
Leviticus 11:
quote: The support is common sense. The Laws were detailed, often arbitrary, sometimes contradictory and whether the source was Biblical, or Rabbinical or simply custom, complex and obscure. When you entered a non-Jewish hose there was simply no way to know the history of the food offered.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3708 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:It may have been difficult to eat with Gentiles or to visit one, but it wasn't forbidden and since Shammai felt it necessary to make several decrees to keep Jews and Gentiles separated, the people must have overcome the difficulty. Message 36 quote:The support for your argument is not common sense because the Laws were detailed, often arbitrary, sometimes contradictory, complex and obscure. There were several sects with their interpretations of the OT Laws and at least two schools of thought. You stated in Message 30, that
jar writes: But the Jewish Christian cult did abandon much of the Law. Peter and Paul are two great examples. But you haven't shown us that Paul or Peter followed the OT Laws any less than other Jews or Jewish Christians of their time. There were Hellenistic Jews before Jesus came. These Jews had largely abandoned much of the Torah in order to be "more accepted" in the Greek/Roman culture where they lived.
The Dispora The vast majority of the Jews living in the Dispersion, however, were not Hebraists, but Hellenists. These were Jews who had conformed themselves to the Greek/Roman culture, and who had basically ceased being "Jewish" except in certain matters of faith. The Sadducees, for example, tended to be Hellenists, whereas the Pharisees were generally Hebraists. Paul claimed to be a Pharisee. Acts 23:6 My position is that at the time of Jesus, Paul, and Peter; the OT Laws had no legal or binding force on Gentiles, Christian or otherwise. They had nothing to abandon. I don't see that Jewish Christians abandoned any OT Laws because of Jesus or Paul. I don't see that Paul or Peter followed the OT Laws any less than the various Diaspora Jews of their time.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 90 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Well, the audience will decide whether or not either of us have supported our position.
A few additional points though. The Laws were not all legally binding, in fact most were simply a matter of custom. Yes, there were several Jewish sects and yes they did have varying opinions; simply reading the Talmud should be enough to confirm that. However both Peter and Paul were of sects that definitely considered keeping Kosher as required and yet they both changed their position. They dropped keeping Kosher as a requirement. You may not see it but it really is that simple.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3708 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Requirement for what? You haven't shown that Paul and Peter didn't follow the Jewish dietary laws.
Acts 25:8 Then Paul made his defense: "I have done nothing wrong against the law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar." Excerpt from: How People Lived In The Bible 2002
Most ancient people ate meat sparingly. Beans and fresh veggies comprised most everyday meals, but when company was coming or there was something to really celebrate, it was time to kill the fatted calf!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 90 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Did Peter and Paul eat with Gentiles in Gentile owned houses?
Could they know whether or not the bread was baked in an oven our used water from a pot that was unclean? As I pointed out above there were Laws that were part of the legal system and Laws that part of custom. The audience can decide what I have shown or not shown.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
|
Here's my quick take on the issue: the jews made everything way too complicated with all their little rules about everything. Jesus came and explained that its not really that difficult; just love god and each other.
I wouldn't say that made the OT "null and void" tho. Its more like it made it unnecessary.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3708 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
IMO, it became more complicated when the leading Jews figured perfect adherence to the laws would get them their nation and temple back. They developed the fence, which was extreme in some cases.
Before that I don't feel they were any more complicated than any other nation's laws.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024