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Author Topic:   Physical Laws ....What if they were different before?
godsriddle
Member (Idle past 4310 days)
Posts: 51
From: USA
Joined: 12-20-2007


Message 203 of 309 (664770)
06-05-2012 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by ringo
06-02-2012 11:54 AM


Re: question unanswered ...
The fundamental question remains: If time was not linear,how would you know? How would you detect the change?
You only have to look at OUR UNIVERSE to know
1. that time has no actuality as Solomon implied.
2. that all visible atomic clocks in billions of galaxies clock a different frequency than local atoms. We never see any distant clocks clocking the same frequencies as local clocks, even when we calibrated them first (as in the case of Ulysses, the 2 Pioneers and Galileo.
3. We observe with sight a biblical cosmic history. Elohim completed the action of spreading out the plural heavens first. Then he continued to spread out each galaxy and cluster as uncountable trillions of star cluster spread out forming the growth spirals we see locally.
We see exactly what the Bible states that the universe is ancient.
We observe that orbits everywhere continue to accelerate just like our ancestors claimed happened here to which the bible acknowledges. In fact, the Bible even describes the geological ages that passed in few days back when the Mediterranean used to dry up repeatedly during one persons lifetime as their faces grew huge thick brows from old age. Read Job 14.
You cannot invent a valid precision empirical system without assuming that atoms are perpetual motion engines. No perpetual motion atoms gleam from any ancient galaxies. This is why visible cosmic history is the best way to test for what is real.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by ringo, posted 06-02-2012 11:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by ringo, posted 06-05-2012 12:01 PM godsriddle has replied

  
godsriddle
Member (Idle past 4310 days)
Posts: 51
From: USA
Joined: 12-20-2007


Message 209 of 309 (664779)
06-05-2012 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by NoNukes
06-05-2012 1:55 AM


Re: SN1987A part 1 - still on the baby step.
Well don't keep us in suspense. What were the two values for the distance to Venus
For 3,000 years astronomers have been recording the orbit of Venus differently from what we calculate.
The Venus Tablet of Amizadugga could only have validity if the whole solar system was smaller. Venus spent weeks too long on the far side of the Sun. It spent half the "too long value" too short for both evening and morning phases. It rushed past Earth in sometimes one day - whereas today it disappears for about 8 days.
Venus is the only planet that has a rotational resonance with Earth (although the Moon is tidally locked to us.
The parallax to the Sun has been steadily decreasing for over 2,000 years. Even if you discount the earliest records we still have
Spencer Jones who used close encounters with the asteroid Eros to calculate the solar parallax at 8.790" (using asteroid Eros - 1941)
IAU radar value 8.794143" (1972 - 149.6 million kilometers)
Parker Moreland using optical parallax to Mars at opposition (2003 -151.6 million kilometers)
Average value obtained during 2004 transit of Venus 8.53" (154.08 million kilometers).
What will the parallax be tomorrow. It should be higher, since we
1. observe that the orbits in spiral galaxies never close but always spiral out (accelerate continually).
2. There is a very simple causal reason for the Earth's orbit to expand (along with the orbits of all the planets. We call it gravity. If the speed of "gravity" is finite, and observations with the VLA when a distant radio quasar passed close to Jupiter show that it is
3. Then gravity must accelerate all days and years equally because it would pull more on the trailing side of the Earth. Indeed paraconical pendula runs for one lunar month show that the gravity from the Sun, Moon and probably the planets affects the precession of the pendulum differently depending on the which side of the Earth those bodies are on during each run.
The Bible plainly states that the days and years of the son are shorter and worse than those from the fathers (gen 47:9). Indeed, it even records the geological ages that passed during a single human life back when men grew thick Neanderthal brows from old age.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by NoNukes, posted 06-05-2012 1:55 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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godsriddle
Member (Idle past 4310 days)
Posts: 51
From: USA
Joined: 12-20-2007


Message 222 of 309 (664813)
06-05-2012 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Taq
06-05-2012 11:04 AM


Re: ... and more questions unanswered ...
godsriddle wrote:What assumption - the one the Bible predicted for the false teachers of the last days - that all things remain the same.
Taq replied: That is not an assumption. It is a testable hypothesis, one that has passed test after test after test. If time were different in the past then we would be able to see that by looking at distant starlight. SN1987a, the evidence you keep ignoring, demonstrates this fact.
The entire structure for scientificating was built on a single assumption. This assumption was a modification to Aristotle's metaphysics which has its roots in Catholic friars such as Thomas and Scotus. In their efforts to adapt the pagan's system to the Bible, they invented new concepts such as being and essence. When Newton made his operational definition of time and space, he did so mathematically using the notion that the ESSENCE of substance is changeless. No one has ever detected any essence or being. In fact the visible properties of all matter are observed to continue to change throughout cosmic history. Even local clocks that transmitted their precision signals yesterday do not match with clock that emit their clocks frequencies today (the Pioneers).
The horror of empiricism is that they define almost all of their measuring units in a double circle. They actually believe that mass, energy and time exist even though they are utterly undetectable and can only be measured mathematically with other undetectable things circularly. Almost all of them were contrived using the assumption Peter predicted for the false teachers of the last days.
This is why visible cosmic history is the best test for the laws of physics. No orbit in any galaxy is following the laws of physics, which is why they have invented four times as much invisible matter as the natural visible kind. Every galaxy needs a unique amount and distribution of invisible matter to try to force it to follow the laws of physics, yet even then none of them do. No ancient atom clocked the frequencies of modern atoms, so they invent pure magic - the vacuum of spacetime is stretching itself (pullying more "energy out of the undetectable vacuum" to stretch the vacuum, move galaxies that are standing still relative to local vacuums and stretch all the frequencies of light passing through the void. Scientists have invented the greatest system of mythology every. Why? Because they never question their basic assumption - the one the Bible predicted.
Yet what we observe in the only history that is visible as it happened, galactic history, is biblical creation and biblical cosmic history. You don't need to imagine imaginary symbolical ways of measuring undetectable things like physicists do - you can see with sight how galaxies intrinsically grew from tiny naked globs as the stars continued to accelerate out - just like the Scriptures state. How great will be the triumph of the word of God over the scientists.
Edited by godsriddle, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Taq, posted 06-05-2012 11:04 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by vimesey, posted 06-05-2012 1:26 PM godsriddle has not replied
 Message 224 by Coragyps, posted 06-05-2012 1:51 PM godsriddle has not replied
 Message 225 by Taq, posted 06-05-2012 3:35 PM godsriddle has not replied
 Message 226 by 1.61803, posted 06-05-2012 4:41 PM godsriddle has not replied

  
godsriddle
Member (Idle past 4310 days)
Posts: 51
From: USA
Joined: 12-20-2007


Message 241 of 309 (664857)
06-06-2012 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by RAZD
06-05-2012 10:01 PM


Re: ... and more questions unanswered ...
In other words, either the variable speed of light is falsified, or additional things need to be changed in consort with the speed of light in a carefully managed manner.
I am dealing with the issue you raised using a different fundamental premise than the one you assume.
There are no constants anywhere in the visible universe.There is no time dimension. You cannot even measure the speed of light unless you assume that atoms are clocks that have some regularity to the way they tick. Yet the atoms in trillions upon trillions upon trillions of distant stars shines at a lower frequency than modern atoms. The lowest clock speed we have analyzed to date shone at 1/11th the frequency of modern atoms. We can see much more distant galaxies whose atoms shine way down in the microwave and far infrared, but it takes a huge telescope to gather enough of that very faint light to clock the atomic frequencies.
Not only did the atoms keep on changing their clock frequencies, but the star orbits (inertia) and the space matter takes up (volume) keep on changing TOGETHER as galaxies grew from tiny naked globs to huge spread out growth spirals. We even see miniature galaxies in the process of being ejected, sometimes in a serial chains like the LMC and the SMC. The river of hydrogen from the LMC and SMC show that they were ejected.
There is not a shred of visible evidence for a single constant anywhere in the whole universe - yet you want me to play symbolical games about symbolical constants that have no reality in the visible universe.
Can you, without circular reasoning or circular definitions, show me a shred of evidence for the actuality of mass, energy or time upon which your laws of physics depend? How can you prove that these things exist without relying on the basic assumption I am arguing against. I argue against it because the Bible predicts that very idea and ascribes it to the mockers of the last days - the notion that all things remain the same.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by RAZD, posted 06-05-2012 10:01 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Taq, posted 06-06-2012 11:54 AM godsriddle has replied
 Message 288 by RAZD, posted 06-06-2012 6:27 PM godsriddle has replied

  
godsriddle
Member (Idle past 4310 days)
Posts: 51
From: USA
Joined: 12-20-2007


Message 290 of 309 (664952)
06-06-2012 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Taq
06-06-2012 11:54 AM


Re: ... and more questions unanswered ...
Last I checked, orbital speeds are given in distance/time. You are using a time dimension in your claims. You are contradicting yourself.
I believe what I see which agrees perfectly with what the Bible states, especially about the visible creation as it happened long ago in the distant heavens.
Solomon plainly stated that time is in our mind. No one has ever detect any time and you cannot even precisely "measure it" without using the notion the Bible predicts for the mockers of the last days. The early people claimed to see the planets pass close by , describing their features and moons. They described the shattering of a planet, which the Bible also mentions 4 times.,
Taq asked .. how do you measure stars orbits? ... How do you measure volume?
The history of the universe is not something you measure. It is something you observe. It is the only history that is visible as it happened. You can't actually measure the speed of stars, or their volume or their distance without complete dependenc on an assumption of atomic perpetual motion.
When you question the fundamental creed of all scientists, that the properties of matter are fixed, not continually emerging, you can start believing your eyes. The history of galaxies is not about undetectable vacuum forces or invisible matter. No one has ever detected any space time or light being stretched as it transited through a void. These things are ad hoc stories made up to protect the blind creed of all scientists.
We observe in all parts of the spectrum how billions of galaxies VISIBLY grew from tiny naked globs to huge local growth spirals. The visible properties of all matter, not the symbolical undetectable mathematical notions about immutable atoms, continue to change relationally throughout cosmic history..
Not a single galaxy is following the laws of physics, because physics was contrived using the assumption the Bible predicted for the last days. How great will be the triumph of the Bible over western science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Taq, posted 06-06-2012 11:54 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Taq, posted 06-07-2012 4:08 PM godsriddle has not replied

  
godsriddle
Member (Idle past 4310 days)
Posts: 51
From: USA
Joined: 12-20-2007


Message 291 of 309 (664964)
06-06-2012 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by ringo
06-05-2012 12:01 PM


Re: question unanswered ...
You assert that but you haven't shown that it's true. (Do you even understand what an "atomic clock" is?)
The only way you could show that your claim is true is by some kind of measurement, which you seem to be claiming is impossible. How can you tell that those clocks have different frequencies if you can't use time to measure the frequencies?
I have worked with cesium beam atomic clocks. They are really two clocks that tune each other. The first clock irradiates cesium with microwaves. The second counts the microwave pulses when the cesium "relaxes." It also sends a signal back to the first clock to adjust its frequency for maximum cesium emissions. If cesium is changing itself relationally, atomic clocks would keep on tuning themselves to the continually changing cesium atoms.
You cannot invent a precision empirical system without assuming that atoms are always clocking the same rates. With these perpetual motion signals, you then go about inventing thousands of other undetected "symbols" that are operationally defined with the allegedly linear seconds.
There is a simple way to test whether clocks really are linear.
1. You can look at the past optically and compare the rate of ancient atomic clocks with local atoms. In hundreds of billions of galaxies, ancient atoms visibly clocked tiny fractions of the frequencies of modern atoms.
2. You can send calibrated clocks out of the solar system so that that we compare their clock signals emitted yesterday with today's clocks. We sent two spin stabilized spacecraft out of the solar system 40 years ago, Pioneer 10 & 11. Spin stabilized craft do not have inertial wheels for orienting the craft so they are unaccelerated. The whole spaceship spins like a gyro about the axis of the main antenna which points back towards the Sun. Anderson from Jet Propulsion noticed that the radio frequencies from both spacecraft kept on deviating from the anticipated Doppler, calculated with the laws of physics. Although the craft were moving in opposite directions, different angles relative to the plane of the ecliptic and different velocities, the observed clock signals kept on changing relative to NASA's hydrogen maser clocks and the differences correlated with distance. The clocks changed at the Hubble ratio (their frequencies changing with distance) just like almost all galaxies. In other words, the clocks from the past are generally clocking slower frequencies than the clocks from the present moment, except for a few local galaxies that are moving towards us (signals shifted by Doppler).
So answer me. Where is the non circular evidence for linear clocks? Don't go begging the question by claiming that clocks measure linear time because the empirical system contrived with the notion of linear clocks authenticate them.
After all, if all clocks are intrinsically changing speed, as we observe, then meter lengths and all the constants of physics would shift with the relationally changing atoms.
The most powerful evidence that the laws of physics are all false is the visible history of how galaxies intrinsically grew from tiny naked globs to huge growth spirals as the atomic clocks, the space matter takes up and its inertial properties all changed together, relationally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by ringo, posted 06-05-2012 12:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by ringo, posted 06-07-2012 12:42 PM godsriddle has not replied
 Message 298 by NoNukes, posted 06-07-2012 3:00 PM godsriddle has replied

  
godsriddle
Member (Idle past 4310 days)
Posts: 51
From: USA
Joined: 12-20-2007


Message 292 of 309 (664968)
06-06-2012 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by RAZD
06-06-2012 6:27 PM


Re: ... and more questions unanswered ...
One at odds with evidence in abundance around us.
One that denies reality.
One that believes your god/s plant false evidence in the universe.
There are uncountable billions of ancient galaxies which we see as they existed long ago. Not a single one of them clocks the frequencies of modern atoms. So why do you reject simple, non philosophically adjusted evidence? In fact scientists have filled the universe up with black magic to protect an assumption. Oh, you are going with the crowd who believe in perpetual motion atoms. Good luck on that one.
God never deceives. He tells you up front that the creation is enslaved to change. He tells you how he CREATED the galaxies and that the the stars did not begin to form and spread out in the spreading place until later. This is precisely what we see not an undetectable big bang - but tiny naked galaxies hooting out equally spaced strings of star globs that accelerated out to form the great growth spirals we see locally.
He even warns you about the false idea with which the false teachers of the last days will obfuscate the history of the plural heavens - precisely what all modern scientists do - even creation scientists reject visible galactic history because it is not scientific.
No wonder the Biblical Creator says He will make foolish the wisdom of this age.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by RAZD, posted 06-06-2012 6:27 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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godsriddle
Member (Idle past 4310 days)
Posts: 51
From: USA
Joined: 12-20-2007


Message 300 of 309 (665078)
06-07-2012 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by NoNukes
06-07-2012 3:00 PM


Re: question unanswered ...
You claim that the spaceship clocks are acting like ancient clocks. But the problem with this is that the space ship clocks are not ancient clocks. Those clocks are essentially contemporary with the atomic clocks still on earth and their atoms are the same age as those on earth having once been on earth. Yet according to you, those atoms are operating differently and follow the Hubble distance law.
The spaceships Pioneer 10 and 11, are examples of how atomic clocks are always changing speed. (Crystals oscillate when stimulated because their atoms are linked together in a lattice). The Pioneers did not use motorized flywheels for orienting the craft. Instead the entire spaceship spins about its axis for gyroscopic stability. Each craft, after leaving the last planet in the grand tour, no longer used thrusters so the craft were internally unaccelerated. NASA beat the received clock-derived radio frequencies against precision hydrogen maser clocks and recorded the differences. According to John D. Anderson from Jet Propulsion Lab, the spaceship clock signals either show an unexpected acceleration towards the solar system or yesterdays clocks are running at a different speed than modern clocks. If the latter is the case, then the Pioneer clocks lost 1.5 Hz over the 7.5 years of intermittent recording. Galileo and Ulysses, two other spin stabilized spacecraft, also showed similar frequency changes that correlated with distance. The recorded frequency differences from the Pioneers increase with increasing distance AT THE HUBBLE RATIO scientists use to estimate the galactic distances using the galaxy’s atomic light clock rates.
The only place where we see the past back to near the beginning is galactic history. The distant sky is wall papered with tiny naked galaxies whose light clocks clock tiny fractions of the frequencies of local clocks. Some of them are found in equally spaced chains with the central galaxy often redder than its neighbors. We also observe that many early galaxies are surrounded by equally spaced star globs that are often bluer than the core. At many ranges we observe how these star globs accelerate outwards, one behind the other as they spread out to form the great, dusty, growth spirals we see locally. Evidently the atomic clocks accelerate along with the inertial clocks.
There is not a shred of visible evidence for atomic perpetual motion upon which scientific empiricism depends. (The empiricism of a few centuries ago was not based on atoms, yet it also depended on the first principle of science, that the properties of matter are not continually emerging.)
Of course scientists, to protect their laws, which only work locally and only when circularly using the definitions contrived with the notion that the properties of matter are not emerging, have filled the universe up with pure unobservable magic. They claim the universe began when a tiny bit of vacuum exploded and created everything out of nothing. They imagine imaginary things like space time, spreading vacuums, vacuums that alter the frequency of passing light and four times as much invisible matter as the natural kind. None of this magic is needed if scientists could just believe the light from long ago showing that all matter has been changing relationally for vast eons. Carefully examine your first principle, the idea the Bible predicted for the false teachers of the last days.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by NoNukes, posted 06-07-2012 3:00 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
godsriddle
Member (Idle past 4310 days)
Posts: 51
From: USA
Joined: 12-20-2007


Message 302 of 309 (665084)
06-07-2012 5:40 PM


Biblical physics triumphs
Only a biblical version of physics is confirmed in galactic history. We observe that (1) the creation is enslaved to change, that this degeneration is (2) orderly and that it acts (3) together, as the Apostle Paul explained in the Greek for Romans 8:19-22. Things that change together, change relationally. (4) That the stars formed after the naked galaxies. The stars continue to come out and the galaxies (shamayim) continue to spread out, according to the Bible.
Every atom in billions of galaxies is observed to clock a different frequency than local, modern atoms. Not only do the atoms keep on changing relationally, but the orbits also accelerate as billions of galaxies grew from tiny naked globs to huge, spread out growth spirals. Evidently the inertial properties of matter, the space matter takes up and their atomic clock frequencies are all changing together, relationally. No wonder the continents only fit together on a tiny globe and the sea floors are forming continually along a global undersea expansion seam. The Bible states three times that the Earth spreads out in unbroken continuity.
It is not the laws of physics that change, it is matter itself that keeps changing. The modern laws of physics are all false because they were contrived with a visibly false notion that the properties of matter are fixed, not emerging. It is because anyone with eyes can observe that the properties of all matter keep on changing that scientists obfuscate galactic history by filling the universe up with magical things like invisible matter and vacuums that stretch themselves as they tightly grip passing light and stretch it too.

  
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