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Author | Topic: The Bible: Is the Author God, Man or Both? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: No, he is saying that it was that way. Read the article.
quote: The point is that Christian use of the OT need not be in agreement with Jewsih thought at all.
quote: I will agree that the disciples understanding of Jesus' mission while Jesus was alive is quite different from the view taken by later Christians.
quote: Another important reason that little was written down early on is that the end of the world was thought to be imminent. And in that time the story grew, and grew - and carried on growing, as we can see just be comparing Mark to Matthew. And let's be honest your "reason" for trusting the Gospels is just a hollow excuse based on ignoring the facts.
quote: So far as I can tell Jesus life meant nothing much to the world today. Even his failure and death meant. Wry little in themselves.
quote: And telling his disciples to arm themselves. And don't forget that the view of the Gospels is anti-Jewish and largely pro-Roman. It is entirely likely that the violent side is played down.
quote: I don't think that you can justify that claim Equally, until N T Wright can actually address my idea of events, I can't take his claim that there is no viable alternative seriously. Indeed it looks to me as if he's just another apologist, and his opinion has much more to do with his biases than any scholarship.
quote: Of course the problem is that you ARE ignoring them...
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Obviously the disciples would have been in a state where they would have been suffering from cognitive dissonance. Equally obviously the idea that Jesus was somehow alive and would return to fulfil the Messianic prophecies would have resolved that dissonance. It is also true that quite common events could have lead to the idea that Jesus was still alive. Where do you think the case falls down?
quote: In fact if cognitive dissonance were involved it might well do precisely that. The old understanding - held while Jesus still lived - would be portrayed as foolish and wrong. The "cowardice" is also exactly what we might see if the disciples WERE suffering from cognitive dissonance. Things had gone badly wrong, they don't know what to do, their faith is shaken... Not to mention the obvious fact that the Gospel writers might have an agenda of their own, which you would need to take into account...
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
Relevant to what issue? Surely one of the issues at stake is the accuracy of the Bible. We have here an example of GDR acting like the Inerrantists, closing his mind and inventing excuses to maintain his false belief (in this case that the evidence strongly supports the claim that there must have been a literal bodily resurrection).
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
If you can't be bothered to follow the conversation you can't expect to understand it.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
Perhaps you could show where I made that claim, if I did, it certainly wasn't in any of the posts you replied to?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
If you had been following the conversation you would understand the point. Of course you would also not have made the error of thinking that I was talking about GDR.
However, if you accept that the Disciples strongly believed that Jesus was the Messiah And if you accept that Jesus was arrested and executed by the Romans instead of fulfilling the Messianic prophecies. Then it follows that they would have been suffering from cognitive dissonance at that point.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
So let's get this straight. Like GDR you reject my argument out of hand for no valid reason.
Well that was really worth butting into the conversation to get me to repeat points already made...
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: In fact you did reject it out of hand. But then I've seen no sign that you even understand it.
quote: As far as I can tell your argument is that the Disciples' cognitive dissonance was resolved by the Resurrection, therefore they didn't suffer from cognitive dissonance. And without bothering to offer any reasoning to support the idea of an actual Resurrection. That's not valid reasoning.
quote: The evidence of your posts says that you haven't bothered to do that. And I've been giving you the clarification you have actually asked for, but apparently it contradicts your beliefs so it must be wrong...
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Wrong on both points, as you would know if you had actually followed the discussion. Please don't respond to my messages unless you are prepared to discuss the issues in good faith.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
If you can't be bothered to read my posts it's a waste of time replying to you.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
Anyone actually following this thread can see that you are just ignoring my points. Until you are prepared to honestly address my posts there is nothing more to say.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
Yes, the dissonance is between Jesus being dead, and Jesus being the Messiah who would restore the kingdom of David and rule over it.
However I feel the need to stress that I do not believe that they were consciously making up ideas to solve the problem, and that I believe that genuine, although mundane, experiences helped persuade them that Jesus somehow still lived.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: I have no idea what you are talking about. Let me explain the idea very simply. The Disciples strongly believed that Jesus was the Messiah, and that he would fulfil the Messianic prophecies. But on the other hand Jesus had just been executed and the prophecies remained unfulfilled. They needed to find a way to deal with the facts that allowed them to retain their beliefs. The idea that Jesus was still alive in some sense and would return to fulfil the prophecies did that.
quote: Of course this is another problematic issue. The figure in Daniel 7 is described as "one like a Son of Man" - and by implication not even A Son of Man. "Son of Man" simply means "a human being".
quote: I don't know what you are talking about. I have NEVER suggested that any experiences were arrived at through cognitive dissonance, and to the best of my knowledge cognitive dissonance doesn't DO that. It simply encourages the acceptance of beliefs that resolve the contradiction.
quote: Of course I am suggesting that the post-resurrection appearances are elaborations of ordinary post-bereavement experiences, which explains them a good deal better.
quote: And your point is ?
quote: OK, the idea that you made up makes no sense. Perhaps you would like to start addressing my position instead of beating up on a strawman ?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: I don't believe that it HAS to be in contravention of the facts - indeed, it's important that they don't KNOW it to be in contravention to the facts. Aside from that, you're just agreeing with me.
quote: If they were consciously making up stories, they might well have done that. But that isn't what cognitive dissonance is about - because if they were making up stories about experiences they had never had in reality, they would KNOW that they were false! Also I'm NOT claiming that the appearance stories that we have were produced by the Disciples OR the product of cognitive dissonance. As I told you in the post that you are replying to! When you can't even make valid objections to your own blatant strawman you've got real problems. The only things that I attribute to cognitive dissonance is a willingness to believe that Jesus was somehow alive, based on normal post-bereavement experiences, and the concept of the Second Coming. And again, I need to remind you of the point that even if Jesus did call himself "Son of Man" (which we can't know) he may have been simply emphasising his own humanity, rather than claiming to be an entity that is implicitly NOT a Son of Man.
quote: But Daniel 7 doesn't talk of "a son of man" - it talks of "one like a son of man". i.e. Daniel 7 only tells us that this being LOOKS human - and no more. Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: "Based on facts" is rather too loose a phrase. There likely will be SOME basis for any belief produced by cognitive dissonance, the point is that the belief is accepted almost entirely because it resolves the cognitive dissonance - which requires only that the basis is quite inadequate to rationally support the conclusion.
quote: Or saw him in dreams, or "felt his presence", or mistook people they saw for him. The story of Mary's encounter with Jesus in John 20:14-18 could be derived from an event of the latter sort.
quote: Since the disciples aren't responsible for the final form of the stories that we have, their cognitive dissonance can't be the entire cause of that form. We have decades of elaboration - and in that particular case, perhaps even a desire to refute opposing ideas of a purely spiritual resurrection - to consider as well.
quote: I didn't mention any need for prior expectation and I don't believe that there is such a need and you haven't given me any reason to suppose that there is.
quote: Wrong. I am making an important point. We don't know if Jesus actually did claim to be the supernatural entity appearing in Daniel 7 or not. The entity in Daniel 7 is not described as even a Son of Man while the phrase "son of man" just means "human being". Even if Jesus did use the phrase to refer to himself (and we can't even be certain of that) it's ambiguous enough that we would need to understand HOW he used it, which is tough when all we have is the translations of distant - and likely second hand - memories.
quote: Which only tells us of Christian usage of the phrase decades after Jesus died. That's not splitting hairs, that's an important consideration. You have GOT to remember that there is a a temporal distance - and almost certainly a significant theological distance - between the NT writings and Jesus.
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