Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Randomness of evolution?
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 1 of 8 (664420)
05-31-2012 7:15 PM


Wikipedila, Natural Selection writes:
Natural selection is the gradual, non-random, process by which biological traits become either more or less common in a population as a function of differential reproduction of their bearers. It is a key mechanism of evolution.
Variation exists within all populations of organisms. This occurs partly because random mutations cause changes in the genome of an individual organism, and these mutations can be passed to offspring. Throughout the individuals’ lives, their genomes interact with their environments to cause variations in traits. (The environment of a genome includes the molecular biology in the cell, other cells, other individuals, populations, species, as well as the abiotic environment.) Individuals with certain variants of the trait may survive and reproduce more than individuals with other variants. Therefore the population evolves. Factors that affect reproductive success are also important, an issue that Charles Darwin developed in his ideas on sexual selection, for example.
Natural selection acts on the phenotype, or the observable characteristics of an organism, but the genetic (heritable) basis of any phenotype that gives a reproductive advantage will become more common in a population (see allele frequency). Over time, this process can result in populations that specialize for particular ecological niches and may eventually result in the emergence of new species. In other words, natural selection is an important process (though not the only process) by which evolution takes place within a population of organisms. As opposed to artificial selection, in which humans favour specific traits, in natural selection the environment acts as a sieve through which only certain variations can pass.
It seems to me to be irrevelant if mutations are "random" because "natural selection" will choose a benefical mutation.
Thus if natural selection chooses beneficial mutations there is an argument that, in fact, all evolution is guided by some force that leads to the enrichment of all species.
How does a scientist determine the cause or working of "natural selection"?
Is there a scientific possibility that this process is planned?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 06-01-2012 6:08 AM shadow71 has replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2 of 8 (664455)
06-01-2012 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by shadow71
05-31-2012 7:15 PM


Hi Shadow,
I think you may be dancing around what you really want to discuss. It sounds like what you really want to talk about is whether natural selection is not only non-random but planned. If you have some ideas along these lines then please describe them and change the title so it matches the topic.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by shadow71, posted 05-31-2012 7:15 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by shadow71, posted 06-01-2012 5:02 PM Admin has replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 3 of 8 (664529)
06-01-2012 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
06-01-2012 6:08 AM


Evolution a planned process
There was at some time the Origin of Life and it is unkown how or why life occurred.
Subsequently Evolution began.
Biological evolution is generally defined as descent with modification, occurring by genetic inheritance and all of life shares a common ancestor that led to the diversity of life we witness today.
Some of the mechanisms of evolution are descent, mutation, migration, genetic drift and natural selection.
It is argued that all mutations are random for fitness, except perhaps CRISPRs systems.
Natural selection is not random.
Therefor it is irrevelant, if in fact, all mutations are random for fitness because natural selection will select the "fittest" mutations.
If we do not know how life began, how can we know where DNA, etc originated?
How do we know what caused genes?
Occam's (or Ockham's) razor is a principle attributed to the 14th century logician and Franciscan friar William of Ockham.
To paraphrase, Occam's Razor for scientists is that when you have two competing theories that make the same predictions the simpler one is better.
I submit that when one views the complexity and diversity of all life today and in the past the simpler most probable explanation is that evolution is planned, and not an accident.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 06-01-2012 6:08 AM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Admin, posted 06-02-2012 9:06 AM shadow71 has replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 4 of 8 (664579)
06-02-2012 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by shadow71
06-01-2012 5:02 PM


Re: Evolution a planned process
Hi Shadow,
Your premise is that evolution is planned, and your supporting evidence is:
  1. We don't know how or why life began.
  2. We don't know how DNA or genes originated.
  3. CRISPR systems may be non-random with respect to fitness.
  4. Ockham's Razor argues simplicity.
I'm not sure Ockham's Razor applies here since the means by which a planner could have evaded detection thus far would involve discarding much of modern physics, a very non-simple theory.
But this sounds exactly like earlier discussions. If you just want to resume an old discussion then that would be fine, but I want to give you another opportunity, if you want, to seek out better evidence. Evidence of an actual mechanism behind the planning would be ideal but probably unexpected, but is there anything else new out there?

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by shadow71, posted 06-01-2012 5:02 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by shadow71, posted 06-03-2012 9:32 AM Admin has replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 5 of 8 (664621)
06-03-2012 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Admin
06-02-2012 9:06 AM


Re: Evolution a planned process
Hi Percy,
My premise is that there is no evidence that the beginning of the universe, the "Big Bang", nor the begining of life, arose completely from some "natural phenomenon" and is wholly an accidential happenstance.
Logic leads me to the conclusion that all of what we seen and do not see is not an accident.
Most scientists "believe" that there was nothing before the big bang and many state we will never solve the issuse of how life began.
Therefore I cannot see how it can be stated with any degree of certainity there is no creator.
I am always told "show me the evidence", I ask, show me the evidence for " Accidential randomness."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Admin, posted 06-02-2012 9:06 AM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Admin, posted 06-03-2012 10:02 AM shadow71 has replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 6 of 8 (664622)
06-03-2012 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by shadow71
06-03-2012 9:32 AM


Re: Evolution a planned process
Hi Shadow,
Now the thread is beginning to look a bit thin on subject matter. You don't need an entire thread just to express your opinion again. It's okay to discuss something that has been discussed before, but there does need to be a central focus or theme that is based upon evidence rather than opinion.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by shadow71, posted 06-03-2012 9:32 AM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by shadow71, posted 06-03-2012 7:10 PM Admin has replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 7 of 8 (664644)
06-03-2012 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Admin
06-03-2012 10:02 AM


Re: Evolution a planned process
Hi Percy,
The thread I am interested in is what evidence is there of Accidental randomness in evolultion and if you wish to expand it to the beginning of life and the beginning of the universe.
I am assuming all participants would be allowed to present circumstantial evidence.
It this is unacceptable then I will drop the issue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Admin, posted 06-03-2012 10:02 AM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Admin, posted 06-03-2012 9:17 PM shadow71 has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 8 of 8 (664646)
06-03-2012 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by shadow71
06-03-2012 7:10 PM


Re: Evolution a planned process
Your proposal isn't unacceptable, but with each response your proposal changes non-trivially. You've gone from wanting to discuss whether natural selection is planned to whether there's any evidence for randomness in evolution.
As a natural process following natural physical laws evolution cannot help but be as random as the rest of the universe. Are you talking about the randomness of mutations with respect to fitness? But you also mentioned the origin of the universe and the origin of life, so I'm wondering if you're trying to argue that there's no randomness in natural processes.
ABE - {Topic proposer has not posted anywhere for almost 2 months. Closing without promotion on July 20, 2012 - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : ABE.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by shadow71, posted 06-03-2012 7:10 PM shadow71 has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024