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Author | Topic: Is America a Christian Nation? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 153 Joined:
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Whether America began a Christian nation is debatable, but what is not questionable is that it was based upon the first democracy in America, the Province of Pennsylvania founded in 1682 by William Penn, that was most definitely a Christian nation. Much of America's government was based on Penn's, which originated concepts like a 2-house elected assembly, a bill of rights with freedom of religion/speech/property, term limits, women's rights, and fair trial by jury.
I've written quite a bit about it at CreationWiki: William Penn - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom by Thomas Jefferson and the Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments by James Madison also show the founders thought of religious freedom very differently from the Separation of Church and State concept used by progressives today. Both believed, per the Declaration of Independence, that inalienable rights and freedom of religion are the result of their being given by a Creator, and referenced a Creator frequently in legislation to prove this. They were never supportive of removing mention of God from government, or preventing Christian influence on government, but rather of preventing a single religious denomination/institution like Catholicism/Anglicanism from persecuting other denominations through government. I've written articles on these also: Virginia statute for religious freedom - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science Memorial and remonstrance against religious assessments - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
quote: Strongly disagreed. If you read Jefferson's Virginia Statute especially, you'll see he used wording that would cause progressives today to go into seizure. I mean, just look at how the document begins: "An Act for establishing religious Freedom. That's not, needless to say, something you hear from a progressive trying to keep mention of God out of government. Like the Declaration of Independence, it references a Creator as the basis for inalienable rights consistent with the Bible. Rather than trying to limit religious expression in government, it seeks to protect it.
quote: Not what I said. Rather, my reasoning is more like this: (1) Progressives say we did not begin a Christian nation.(2) This is clearly false per William Penn's 1682 government. and (1) Progressives say the founders intended to keep religion out of government, and that we should remove mention of God from government.(2) This is clearly false since Jefferson's writing strongly invoked God and belief in God as the basis for religious freedom. (3) Jefferson was not writing to stop religious expression in government since as he said, "our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinions in physics or geometry". Rather he was seeking to stop the abuse of institutions specifically, like Anglicanism, Catholicism, and arguably today's Evolutionary establishment, from "assum[ing] dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavouring to impose them on others". Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given.
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
t does, however, appear to be what you're thinking, or why would you think that the religious sentiments of Madison and Jefferson had any relevance whatsoever to the question of whether they favored separation of Church and State? We're not talking about their religious sentiments. We're talking about them enshrining in U.S. law the fact that a Creator is the basis for religious freedom. We're talking about how their concept of Separation of Church and State is completely opposite the concept of Separation of Church and State that Progressives today have.
Well, at first glance, and indeed second and third glance, that appears to be a lie so vast that it's in danger of undergoing gravitational collapse and turning into a black hole. Would you care to try to justify it or elaborate on it? The Declaration of Independence states:
quote: http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom states:
quote: Virginia statute for religious freedom - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science Seems pretty clear to me.
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
Please show the reference to Christianity in either document? The Virginia Statute speaks of "Almighty God, who being Lord of both mind and body". That's not well-fitted for religions apart from the Bible. But it's not explicit in regards to Christianity. William Penn's government in 1682, America's first democracy, was explicitly Christian, however. It based marriage on the Bible and declared Sunday a day of rest for both citizens and the government. Much of what's considered American was actually based on Penn's government over a century before the U.S. Constitution. Province of pennsylvania - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
quote: What you believe on Separation of Church and State I'm not sure. We may be in agreement. All I'm saying is the founders opposed restrictions on religious expression, including in U.S. politics, as evidenced by the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom.
It does indeed. And your point was? How on earth does that support your claim that it seeks to protect religious expression in government? My point was that Jefferson, the same guy who created the term and concept of a "wall of separation" was at the same time writing (in U.S. Law mind you) about how Almighty God is Lord of both mind and body yet didn't coerce others into belief, and this is the basis for U.S. religious freedom. Obviously if he wanted to stop Christians from presenting views on God in government, he wouldn't have used such religious language himself in referencing "Almighty God". His own document on religious freedom provides an example of what his thought process on religious freedom was like, and what should be permissible. Therefore, it should be alright for me to write a bill proclaiming Almighty God institutes X rights, and drawing logical conclusions as such, just as Jefferson did.
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
The U.S. was founded on William Penn's 1682 government, the Province of Pennsylvania, which clearly was a Christian nation. You still haven't refuted this.
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
You have not done anything more than assert this, so I'm curious what there is to refute. Your claim is that much/most of what is considered American is based on William Penn's 1682 government. How about describing a few examples? I see a number of Christian related things that are definitely NOT part of our structure for government. For example a requirement that public officials be Christian is not part of our Government. The religious freedom clause is nothing like the First Amendment as it singles out a single object of worship as being legitimate. Further some of the institutions that are in common with our form of government were also in common with England. Thomas Jefferson called Penn "the greatest lawgiver the world has produced". His government in 1682 originated the principles of representative government, separation of church and state, and elimination of nobility and ranks. THIS VENERABLE DOCUMENT It produced almost exactly a century before the U.S. Constitution concepts such as an elected 2-house Congress to pass bills, religious freedom, freedom of speech, and a Bill of Rights.http://avalon.law.yale.edu/17th_century/pa04.asp I wrote an in-depth analysis of the charter here: Province of pennsylvania - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science The U.S. House and Senate were clearly designed around Pennsylvania's General Assembly and Provincial Council, and required 2/3 approval for bill passage. It had a Governor like today's President and 18-member subcommittees within the Provincial Council, similar to today's Senatorial committees. The 1701 Charter of Privileges was much like the later Bill of Rights guaranteeing freedom of religion, right to private property, free elections, and fair trials. http://www.constitution.org/bcp/penncharpriv.htm Courtrooms were similar to today's as well. Witnesses were commanded to speak "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth", something we adopted. There was even a public education system where children at age 12 were taught useful trades/skills.
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
Well, I ignored it as I often do when Creationists try to pull a Gish Gallop and simply throw out yet another unsupported assertion. Until you actually provide support for the new assertion that "The U.S. was founded on William Penn's 1682 government, the Province of Pennsylvania, which clearly was a Christian nation" I will simply continue chuckling. The Gish Gallop is not a new tactic to the folk here; throw out yet another unsupported assertion and when that gets refuted then throw out another unsupported assertion. Not sure how you think this is a "new point". The first post I wrote here, Message 141, began with the following:
quote: My original and main point was always William Penn, others just chose initially to focus on my lesser points about Jefferson and the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom.
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 153 Joined:
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Most of those things are unrelated to being a Christian nation. We also know historically that the bicameral legislatures date back to medieval times. Well, as far as being a Christian nation, Penn's government: -Strongly declared this in the beginning of the Preface, stating:
quote: -Based marriage on "the law of God":
quote: -Required public officials be Christians:
quote: -Had Sunday "Blue Laws":
quote: -Outlawed homosexuality, profanity, gambling, lying, incest, drunkenness, prostitution, and cruelty to animals based on the Bible:
quote: Province of pennsylvania - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science
In particular, though, given the huge differences between religious freedom as Penn viewed it, and the version that was incorporated into the Bill of Rights, it seems pretty strange to cite this. By today's standards such a definition of religious freedom, omitting atheists, is inadequate, but at the time it was a huge step forward. Institutions like Catholicism and Anglicanism required those in countries they dominated to pay tithes to the state church and prevented those of other denominations from running for office, or even had them imprisoned and their properties seized. By providing religious freedom to all Christians Pennsylvania made an unusual change for its time.
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
quote: That lengthy post was in reply to NoNukes after they questioned whether Pennsylvania was a Christian government. It achieved its purpose of showing that Pennsylvania definitely was a Christian government. As for anything Christian making it into the U.S. Constitution, it did make it into all the state constitutions, which all reference God. God in the State Constitutions - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.netThe Fifty States Reference God in their Constitutions-Truth! - Truth or Fiction? It did make it into the Declaration of Independence. It did make it into Jefferson's Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. Just because the U.S. Constitution isn't as explicit as the state constitutions or those other 2 major sources, doesn't negate the fact that American democracy as we know it began with William Penn and a very definitely Christian nation.
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
And yet this is just one of the colonies, so if you are going to look at the colonies you have to look at all of them, not just the one/s that meet your beliefs and opinions. Fair enough. Just show me what other colonies had Congressional governing systems with checks and balances, freedom of religion, fair elections, and trial by jury, and I'll be happy to take a look at them.
For instance Roger Williams and Providence Plantation (later Rhode Island) But by your own acknowledgement wasn't Williams, another early proponent of religious freedom, a Baptist? I appreciate the info, I wasn't aware of Williams, but you didn't really point out how the government he set up was not Christian in nature. Because if it was - as might be expected of a Baptist minister - then wouldn't it just be an additional proof, along with Penn, that America's origins, along with the origins of religious freedom, were Christian in nature? Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given. Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given. Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given.
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
I agree with you completely about Rhode Island being an ideal example of religious freedom, better even than William Penn's, since it granted freedom also to Jews.
I guess the reason I see this all being at issue is that it seems like social progressives (I'm personally progressive on economics) want to deny our founding fathers were Christian or guided by Christian ideals when proposing freedom of religion. The way social conservatives at least have been seeing it, they want to remove all mention of God from the Pledge of Allegiance, courtrooms, and state constitutions in the name of religious freedom and Constitutionality - even in cases where the founding fathers who wrote the Constitution put those mentions of God there in the first place. There was a huge controversy in recent years over whether the Ten Commandments could be displayed on courthouse grounds, for example - the ACLU fought vigorously and prevailed in removing the Ten Commandments. You've got cases where Christian groups can't be led in public schools, or prayer allowed on sports teams, even when all members would support it. And any bill that can be accused of having a Christian motivation, even something as simple as a sticker on evolution textbooks saying that evolution is a theory, is accused of breaking the law on separation of church and state. Or those who say marriage should remain between a man and a woman unless solid evidence can be shown that homosexuality has a genetic basis, and that marriage shouldn't be expanded to where it becomes meaningless under the belief absolute morality doesn't exist and shouldn't be instituted in government, are likewise accused of violating separation of church and state. Separation of church and state seems to have become about infringing on religious freedom of Christians so that, because of their moral, religious views, they can't have a voice on how government should be run, and only atheists should be able to direct our country. This is why I argue about what the founding fathers were like, and whether or not they were Christians; as well as what separation of church and state and religious freedom were really meant to accomplish.
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 153 Joined:
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Any law must, let me repeat, must primarily have a secular purpose. As a Christian I fully support keeping the Ten Commandments, references to God, prayers in schools restricted and removing "Under God" from the Pledge and "In God We Trust" from all currency. This is not an atheist Christian issue, it is an issue of keeping Church and Government separated. But how can freedoms exist without acknowledging God? The Declaration of Independence states a Creator gives us our inalienable rights. Ultimately, how do we define what freedoms and laws are? Where does our concept of morality come from? And how is it determined? Without respect of a Creator, what keeps one person from infringing on the rights of another person? Their rights to freedom of religion, speech, property, or life? Furthermore, on what basis can we determine ultimate right and wrong? We take it as granted what the Ten Commandments state, that it is wrong to kill or steal. But how do we know this? For this wrong to exist absolutely it must be legislated as such by a higher power, and therefore, laws and morality are not devised by human beings, but implanted by a Creator on our universe, and within the hearts and souls of all creations. If people do not acknowledge a Creator, they will become gradually more wicked in always seeking to condone their own wickedness, arguing their actions should not be considered wrong so that gradually nothing gets considered wrong - even when it infringes on the rights of their fellow human beings to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We do need to keep church and government separated. We also need to keep science and government separated. And political parties and government separated. Any institution, whether religious, scientific, or political will seek to usurp the reins of government for its own selfish and prejudicial ends, harming those it disagrees with. Institutions and organizations must not be allowed to silence opposing points of view. However, we cannot keep faith and government separated, as faith or religious belief is like any other belief that should be allowed free expression according to the 1st amendment, so long as it does not seek to silence the expression of other opposing views. Otherwise, this would be prejudice contrary to religious freedom.
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 153 Joined:
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Obviously they can have a voice. They can also vote according to what they think God wants them to do. What they can't do is institutionalize Christianity. Yes, that includes employees of the state telling children when to pray and how to pray and who to pray to and what to pray for. Yes, that includes using public money and public land to display icons of one sectarian group of one religion. Yes, that involves using any public funds to push the agenda of creationist sects. When Madison wrote "total separation" he didn't add "unless you really want to". I agree about not institutionalizing Christianity. But I guess the question is, what's the difference between what you mentioned, and having taught as undeniable fact to impressionable young minds the theory of Evolution or the Big Bang, both of which are frankly opinions, and using tax dollars to do so? What is the difference between teaching children about homosexual role models as the gay rights movement is having done in states across the U.S.? What is the difference between forcing millions of Pro-Life Americans to fund Planned Parenthood through the new healthcare law? What is the difference between having a Stimulus give millions of dollars in earmarks to Pro-Evolution organizations and scientists, and not to Creationist ones? 4/14/11: California Senate mandates homosexual role models for schoolchildren - SaveCalifornia.com How are these opinions forced on Americans who don't support them a different case?
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
To me it looks like those who say church and state should be kept separate, as evidenced by the examples I gave, are in reality doing exactly what Jefferson predicted, actually institutionalizing their own beliefs in law, and infringing on the religious freedoms of those they disagree with. If it is wrong to institutionalize one side's beliefs and force them on others, it should be for the other side also.
quote: Virginia statute for religious freedom - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given.
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