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Author | Topic: Is America a Christian Nation? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Gish Gallop much?
The question was to find out where Christianity was mentioned in the US Declaration of Independence or your cite from the Virginia Statute and it just is NOT there. Thank GOD the US is NOT a Christian Nation and never has been.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1011 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
The U.S. was founded on William Penn's 1682 government, the Province of Pennsylvania, which clearly was a Christian nation. You still haven't refuted this.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
The U.S. was founded on William Penn's 1682 government, the Province of Pennsylvania, which clearly was a Christian nation. You have not done anything more than assert this, so I'm curious what there is to refute. Your claim is that much/most of what is considered American is based on William Penn's 1682 government. How about describing a few examples? I see a number of Christian related things that are definitely NOT part of our structure for government. For example a requirement that public officials be Christian is not part of our Government. The religious freedom clause is nothing like the First Amendment as it singles out a single object of worship as being legitimate. Further some of the institutions that are in common with our form of government were also in common with England.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison
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jar Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Well, I ignored it as I often do when Creationists try to pull a Gish Gallop and simply throw out yet another unsupported assertion.
Until you actually provide support for the new assertion that "The U.S. was founded on William Penn's 1682 government, the Province of Pennsylvania, which clearly was a Christian nation" I will simply continue chuckling. The Gish Gallop is not a new tactic to the folk here; throw out yet another unsupported assertion and when that gets refuted then throw out another unsupported assertion.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1011 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
You have not done anything more than assert this, so I'm curious what there is to refute. Your claim is that much/most of what is considered American is based on William Penn's 1682 government. How about describing a few examples? I see a number of Christian related things that are definitely NOT part of our structure for government. For example a requirement that public officials be Christian is not part of our Government. The religious freedom clause is nothing like the First Amendment as it singles out a single object of worship as being legitimate. Further some of the institutions that are in common with our form of government were also in common with England. Thomas Jefferson called Penn "the greatest lawgiver the world has produced". His government in 1682 originated the principles of representative government, separation of church and state, and elimination of nobility and ranks. THIS VENERABLE DOCUMENT It produced almost exactly a century before the U.S. Constitution concepts such as an elected 2-house Congress to pass bills, religious freedom, freedom of speech, and a Bill of Rights.http://avalon.law.yale.edu/17th_century/pa04.asp I wrote an in-depth analysis of the charter here: Province of pennsylvania - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science The U.S. House and Senate were clearly designed around Pennsylvania's General Assembly and Provincial Council, and required 2/3 approval for bill passage. It had a Governor like today's President and 18-member subcommittees within the Provincial Council, similar to today's Senatorial committees. The 1701 Charter of Privileges was much like the later Bill of Rights guaranteeing freedom of religion, right to private property, free elections, and fair trials. http://www.constitution.org/bcp/penncharpriv.htm Courtrooms were similar to today's as well. Witnesses were commanded to speak "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth", something we adopted. There was even a public education system where children at age 12 were taught useful trades/skills.
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1011 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
Well, I ignored it as I often do when Creationists try to pull a Gish Gallop and simply throw out yet another unsupported assertion. Until you actually provide support for the new assertion that "The U.S. was founded on William Penn's 1682 government, the Province of Pennsylvania, which clearly was a Christian nation" I will simply continue chuckling. The Gish Gallop is not a new tactic to the folk here; throw out yet another unsupported assertion and when that gets refuted then throw out another unsupported assertion. Not sure how you think this is a "new point". The first post I wrote here, Message 141, began with the following:
quote: My original and main point was always William Penn, others just chose initially to focus on my lesser points about Jefferson and the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom.
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jar Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Because you were shown to be wrong in your assertion that the US Declaration of Independence and the Virginia Statute mentioned Christianity in any way.
Now you are making yet another series of unsupported assertions that the US Democracy was based on the Pennsylvania Government. Much of the US Government is based on the Iroquois Confederacy. Does that mean the US is an Indian Spirit Nation? The US was designed to make sure that NO religion played a part in Government. In addition, what the Founding Fathers imagined is also irrelevant. In case you haven't noticed we are not living in the 1600's. The Founding Fathers were smart enough to realize that what they believed government should be was irrelevant to later generations. Fortunately today we have the "Lemon Test" and unless there is a SECULAR purpose to any legislation it is rightfully to be found unconstitutional.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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It produced almost exactly a century before the U.S. Constitution concepts such as an elected 2-house Congress to pass bills, religious freedom, freedom of speech, and a Bill of Rights. Most of those things are unrelated to being a Christian nation. We also know historically that the bicameral legislatures date back to medieval times. In particular, though, given the huge differences between religious freedom as Penn viewed it, and the version that was incorporated into the Bill of Rights, it seems pretty strange to cite this.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1011 days) Posts: 153 Joined:
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Most of those things are unrelated to being a Christian nation. We also know historically that the bicameral legislatures date back to medieval times. Well, as far as being a Christian nation, Penn's government: -Strongly declared this in the beginning of the Preface, stating:
quote: -Based marriage on "the law of God":
quote: -Required public officials be Christians:
quote: -Had Sunday "Blue Laws":
quote: -Outlawed homosexuality, profanity, gambling, lying, incest, drunkenness, prostitution, and cruelty to animals based on the Bible:
quote: Province of pennsylvania - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science
In particular, though, given the huge differences between religious freedom as Penn viewed it, and the version that was incorporated into the Bill of Rights, it seems pretty strange to cite this. By today's standards such a definition of religious freedom, omitting atheists, is inadequate, but at the time it was a huge step forward. Institutions like Catholicism and Anglicanism required those in countries they dominated to pay tithes to the state church and prevented those of other denominations from running for office, or even had them imprisoned and their properties seized. By providing religious freedom to all Christians Pennsylvania made an unusual change for its time.
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jar Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
And still has nothing to do with the topic.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16113 Joined:
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What you believe on Separation of Church and State I'm not sure. We may be in agreement. All I'm saying is the founders opposed restrictions on religious expression, including in U.S. politics, as evidenced by the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. But they instituted restrictions on religious expression by the government. Yes, obviously they let politicians, in their capacity as private individuals, express whatever religion they wanted, just like any other person could. But they forbade them to do so in their capacity as holders of public offices.
Obviously if he wanted to stop Christians from presenting views on God in government, he wouldn't have used such religious language himself in referencing "Almighty God". His own document on religious freedom provides an example of what his thought process on religious freedom was like, and what should be permissible. Therefore, it should be alright for me to write a bill proclaiming Almighty God institutes X rights, and drawing logical conclusions as such, just as Jefferson did. I think you might find that the First Amendment would be an obstacle in certain cases. After all, have you ever seen any of the whackier breed of Republican congressmen writing a bill saying what Almighty God thinks? And yet they do think that they know what Almighty God thinks and that he's in favor of every bill they write, it's one of the more egregiously nutty things about them. I would suggest, then, that if they don't do that it's because they know that they can't. And really, would it be desirable if they could? Should Congress be allowed to pass laws saying what God thinks? Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1655 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi Jzyehoshua,
My point was that Jefferson, the same guy who created the term and concept of a "wall of separation" was at the same time writing (in U.S. Law mind you) about how Almighty God is Lord of both mind and body yet didn't coerce others into belief, and this is the basis for U.S. religious freedom. Just curious, have you read the Jefferson Bible?
Obviously if he wanted to stop Christians from presenting views on God in government, he wouldn't have used such religious language himself in referencing "Almighty God". Would this not also apply to deism, or in fact to any religion known and practiced at that time? Is not the issue that no one religion would be given supremacy, but and and all beliefs would be allowed without bias? The founding fathers included christians, but that does not mean that they in any way intended to create a christian nation: the evidence in the Constitution says otherwise. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Evangelical Humanists Junior Member (Idle past 4503 days) Posts: 14 Joined:
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The Founders knew that including a god mean't passing laws to protect him. Jefferson wrote in the Treaty of Tripoli this:
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. This treaty was authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796 it was later sent to the Senate floor on June 7, 1797.................it was approved by John Adams after being read allowed that is. It was created (the US) as a secular nation. Edited by Evangelical Humanists, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1655 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi Evangelical Humanists and welcome to the fray.
It was created (the US) as a secular nation. Indeed, as rather explicitly stated in Article. VI. Clause 3:
quote: bold for emphasis. ... and that is the only place religion is mentioned in the main body of the constitution. Enjoy.
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Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Jefferson wrote in the Treaty of Tripoli this [...] This treaty was authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow There seems to be an inconsistency in your narrative.
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