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Author | Topic: Is America a Christian Nation? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I assume you have some evidence of that and some indication of how even IF that were true, it would have anything to do with the topic?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 1052 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
If (and this is a pretty big leap given your lack of substantiating evidence) this is true...all it says is that GW got his advice from a christian guy. What's that you say? Most every white male during that time was a christian so saying he got advice from a christian guy would be like saying he had black slaves.
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16113 Joined: |
George Washington got all his advice from a christian man, a friend of his.that concerned the USA back then.There are letters that prove this. All his advice from one man?
So what does that say about George Washington? That he didn't make friends easily?
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subbie Member (Idle past 1505 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
So what does that say about George Washington? It says that a lot of people are more than willing to make up lies about George Washington to advance their own religious agenda.Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung
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anglagard Member (Idle past 1087 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
Does this magical sole adviser have a name? Because without a name, the magical sole adviser may be imaginary.
Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1011 days) Posts: 153 Joined:
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Whether America began a Christian nation is debatable, but what is not questionable is that it was based upon the first democracy in America, the Province of Pennsylvania founded in 1682 by William Penn, that was most definitely a Christian nation. Much of America's government was based on Penn's, which originated concepts like a 2-house elected assembly, a bill of rights with freedom of religion/speech/property, term limits, women's rights, and fair trial by jury.
I've written quite a bit about it at CreationWiki: William Penn - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom by Thomas Jefferson and the Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments by James Madison also show the founders thought of religious freedom very differently from the Separation of Church and State concept used by progressives today. Both believed, per the Declaration of Independence, that inalienable rights and freedom of religion are the result of their being given by a Creator, and referenced a Creator frequently in legislation to prove this. They were never supportive of removing mention of God from government, or preventing Christian influence on government, but rather of preventing a single religious denomination/institution like Catholicism/Anglicanism from persecuting other denominations through government. I've written articles on these also: Virginia statute for religious freedom - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science Memorial and remonstrance against religious assessments - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science
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Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16113 Joined:
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The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom by Thomas Jefferson and the Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments by James Madison also show the founders thought of religious freedom very differently from the Separation of Church and State concept used by progressives today. Um ... except that they subscribed to and practically invented "the Separation of Church and State concept used by progressives today".
The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State. --- James Madison, letter to Robert Walsh, March, 2 1819. Letters and Other Writings of James Madison Fourth President of The United States in Four Volumes Published by the Order of Congress, J.B. Lippincott & Co., Philadelphia 1865, Volume III, pp 121-126. I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. ---Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Danbury Baptists, 1802 Both believed, per the Declaration of Independence, that inalienable rights and freedom of religion are the result of their being given by a Creator ... Yes, and they also believed in the separation of church and state. Like many conservative Christians before you, your reasoning appears to contain a fundamental(ist) error. It goes something like this: (1) Only irreligious people would want church-state separation and a secular government.(2) The Founding Fathers were not irreligious people. (3) Therefore, this is not what they wanted. But premise 1 is simply false.
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1011 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
quote: Strongly disagreed. If you read Jefferson's Virginia Statute especially, you'll see he used wording that would cause progressives today to go into seizure. I mean, just look at how the document begins: "An Act for establishing religious Freedom. That's not, needless to say, something you hear from a progressive trying to keep mention of God out of government. Like the Declaration of Independence, it references a Creator as the basis for inalienable rights consistent with the Bible. Rather than trying to limit religious expression in government, it seeks to protect it.
quote: Not what I said. Rather, my reasoning is more like this: (1) Progressives say we did not begin a Christian nation.(2) This is clearly false per William Penn's 1682 government. and (1) Progressives say the founders intended to keep religion out of government, and that we should remove mention of God from government.(2) This is clearly false since Jefferson's writing strongly invoked God and belief in God as the basis for religious freedom. (3) Jefferson was not writing to stop religious expression in government since as he said, "our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinions in physics or geometry". Rather he was seeking to stop the abuse of institutions specifically, like Anglicanism, Catholicism, and arguably today's Evolutionary establishment, from "assum[ing] dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavouring to impose them on others". Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16113 Joined:
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Strongly disagreed. Uh ... you read the quotations, right?
Not what I said. It does, however, appear to be what you're thinking, or why would you think that the religious sentiments of Madison and Jefferson had any relevance whatsoever to the question of whether they favored separation of Church and State?
Like the Declaration of Independence, it references a Creator as the basis for inalienable rights consistent with the Bible. Rather than trying to limit religious expression in government, it seeks to protect it. Well, at first glance, and indeed second and third glance, that appears to be a lie so vast that it's in danger of undergoing gravitational collapse and turning into a black hole. Would you care to try to justify it or elaborate on it?
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1655 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi again Jzyehoshua
Just a quick note:
Like the Declaration of Independence, it references a Creator as the basis for inalienable rights consistent with ... ... deist beliefs of the time. You seem to be cherry-picking out references to Christianity and then claiming that this is all that applies to the founding fathers opinions. The founding fathers were well experienced with religious persecution, both in England and again here in the Colonies, that were due to having a state religion. When you look at the whole picture you see that the nation was founded with the principle that each and every belief would be allowed with no persecution, including christian. That does not make it a christian nation, but a nation that allows christians to believe their faith without persecution or second-class status, just as it allows jews, deists, native americans etc to believe their faiths without persecution or second-class status. There were a lot of christians that campaigned to make it a state religion, and you can quote them till the cows come home. the fact remains that the government laid out in the constitution is secular, without specific reference to any religion, nor without any religious litmus test required for any office:
quote: Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1011 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
t does, however, appear to be what you're thinking, or why would you think that the religious sentiments of Madison and Jefferson had any relevance whatsoever to the question of whether they favored separation of Church and State? We're not talking about their religious sentiments. We're talking about them enshrining in U.S. law the fact that a Creator is the basis for religious freedom. We're talking about how their concept of Separation of Church and State is completely opposite the concept of Separation of Church and State that Progressives today have.
Well, at first glance, and indeed second and third glance, that appears to be a lie so vast that it's in danger of undergoing gravitational collapse and turning into a black hole. Would you care to try to justify it or elaborate on it? The Declaration of Independence states:
quote: http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom states:
quote: Virginia statute for religious freedom - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science Seems pretty clear to me.
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Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16113 Joined: |
We're not talking about their religious sentiments. We're talking about them enshrining in U.S. law the fact that a Creator is the basis for religious freedom. They didn't. Nor is it a fact.
We're talking about how their concept of Separation of Church and State is completely opposite the concept of Separation of Church and State that Progressives today have. It isn't. What I mean by "total separation of the church from the state" is no different from what Madison meant by it. Indeed, if anything, I am more easy-going on the subject than Madison: for example, I have no objection to the provision of chaplains to the military.
The Declaration of Independence states: I have never denied that the Founders possessed religious sentiments. I have indeed asserted it.
The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom states: It does indeed. And your point was? How on earth does that support your claim that it seeks to protect religious expression in government? Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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jar Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Please show the reference to Christianity in either document?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1011 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
Please show the reference to Christianity in either document? The Virginia Statute speaks of "Almighty God, who being Lord of both mind and body". That's not well-fitted for religions apart from the Bible. But it's not explicit in regards to Christianity. William Penn's government in 1682, America's first democracy, was explicitly Christian, however. It based marriage on the Bible and declared Sunday a day of rest for both citizens and the government. Much of what's considered American was actually based on Penn's government over a century before the U.S. Constitution. Province of pennsylvania - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science
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Jzyehoshua Member (Idle past 1011 days) Posts: 153 Joined: |
quote: What you believe on Separation of Church and State I'm not sure. We may be in agreement. All I'm saying is the founders opposed restrictions on religious expression, including in U.S. politics, as evidenced by the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom.
It does indeed. And your point was? How on earth does that support your claim that it seeks to protect religious expression in government? My point was that Jefferson, the same guy who created the term and concept of a "wall of separation" was at the same time writing (in U.S. Law mind you) about how Almighty God is Lord of both mind and body yet didn't coerce others into belief, and this is the basis for U.S. religious freedom. Obviously if he wanted to stop Christians from presenting views on God in government, he wouldn't have used such religious language himself in referencing "Almighty God". His own document on religious freedom provides an example of what his thought process on religious freedom was like, and what should be permissible. Therefore, it should be alright for me to write a bill proclaiming Almighty God institutes X rights, and drawing logical conclusions as such, just as Jefferson did.
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