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Author | Topic: Ontological Proof of Intelligent Design | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Russell E. Rierson Inactive Member |
This is my interpretation of the ontological proofs of Anslem, Liebniz, and Goedel:
1.) A property is positive iff its negation is not positive. 2.) A property is positive if it necessarily contains a positive property[self containment] 3.) A positive property is logically consistent. 4.) A property is God-like iff, it contains all positive properties. The term "God" is therefore defined as an unlimited being that is self contained, and contains, all positive properties. 5.)Being God-like is a positive property 6.) Being a positive property is logically necessary. 7.) Necessary existence is a positive property. 8.) Therefore God exists.
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.4 |
Ontological arguments are silly.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5933 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Russ
How do we justify the leap from #2 "contains a positive property[self containment]" to #4 "and contains, all positive properties." Please justify these assumptions. 5.)Being God-like is a positive property 6.) Being a positive property is logically necessary. 7.) Necessary existence is a positive propertyNone of these are self evident so how do you account for them?
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Russell E. Rierson Inactive Member |
According to the scientific method, absolute certainty cannot exist.
This appears to reduce to the statement: "The only certainty, is uncertainty" A type of circular reasoning? So the scientific method itself, employs a type of paradoxical and pejoratively circular logic? In fact, there seems to be no escaping certain types of circular logic. It is built into the very structure of our cognitive machinery. The ultimate limits of observation, i.e. the extremely small approaching zero and extremely large at the end of the universe, appear to be forever beyond our reach. It can be acknowledged that quantum phase inhibitors exist in the neural underpinnings of certain sentient programs. A type of built in ego identity fail-safe that prevents total systemic collapse in the neural subroutines ensuring that redundancy is not compromised. So we see that atheism-theism are two sides of the same coin? What is needed is true mathematical closure in the cognitive matrix of the ostensible TOE theorizer, not delusional, identity protective fail-safes. Therefore, belief systems must be analyzed from a higher level of abstraction, a deeper level of truth. Does a first principle exist to remedy the dilemma of discovering the true approach to the ultimate truths? How can we be sure that logic is the most basic of basic starting points. Conjecture: [Mathematical Reality ] = [Physical Reality ] For example: Einstein: R_uv - [1/2]g_uv R = 8pi G T_uv is more correct than Newton: F = G m1 m2 /r^2 The Einstein field equations look very elegant and they contain much more information in their tensor formulations with regards to structure of spacetime and its relation to matter and energy, than does the Newtonian law of gravity. Tensors are a generalization of the "vector" concept. So, generalizations can be closer to isomorphism with reality than the more primitive abstract constructs. So the exact correspondence, i.e. "one to one and onto", becomes a type of "limit", in the compression of information via powerful generalizations. At the limit of informational compressibility, the physical universe is actually a mathematical universe. The real million dollar question is "can a convergent sequence of mathematical relations be described as an approach towards isomorphism, where theoretical constructs become MP , limits ?" Where M stands for mathematical description and P stands for physical existence. Does this limit exist? can it be proved to exist? Does quantum mechanics provide us with a reliable model for trans-Turing computation? We realize now that the surface area of the horizon of a black hole is a measure of its entropy, so the maximum entropy of any closed region of space can never exceed one quarter of the area of the circumscribing surface: S' = S_m + [1/4]A According to Stephen Hawking, in the excellent book "The Universe in a Nutshell" , entropy is nothing more than a measure of the total information contained in a system, and the the information associated with all phenomena in the three dimensional world may be stored on its two-dimensional boundary, like a holographic image. So space is a form of memory storage for the universe, hypothetically speaking of course. The hypothesis is that since space encodes information, the entire universe is a gigantic computer which operates as a self referential logic loop that feeds back into itself. Since spacetime is a form of memory storage, the universe "remembers" the information[person's life] . We are forever etched into the universal "storage disc = 3D space". We are just sentient programs and the universal "mind", is computing and storing the information. Truth is an algorithm.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
I think that the other responses miss the real problem with this argument.
The argument produces a definition of "God" that includes necessary existence (4, 7) and concludes that God exists. 5 and 6 appear to be redundant and 1 could certainly do with more explanation (for instance if a positive property is to be defined in terms of negative properties it is meaningless unless negative properties are defined). A definition gives a list of properties associated with a label. In this case the label "God" includes the property "necessary existence". So if we said "God exists" we would mean that there was an existing entity with the properties in the label. If we say "God does not exist" we mean that there is no existing being which posesses the properties associated with the label. Therefore even if God is defined as necessarily existing it may still be true that God does not exist. All that that means is that there either are no necessarily existing entities, or any entities which do necessarily exist do not posess all of the other properties required for the label "God" to be properly applied to them. So merely defining God as necessarily existing must fail. There is another potentially serious problem - if the combination of all positive properties is not logically consistent then one of 3 and 5 must be false (if being God-like is not logically consistent then either it is not a positive property or poitive properties are not necessarily logically consistent).
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Russell E. Rierson Inactive Member |
Very good.
Thanks for the help PaulK
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Primordial Egg Inactive Member |
You can use the same proof to argue for the existence of the perfect island.
PE
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.4 |
Brad?
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5845 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
Other than your arbitrary choice of using the word "God", I am unsure how your argument proves anything about God.
As far as I can tell, your definition in point #4 is for "Universe". That is certainly the only thing which is completely self-contained, and includes all positive properties. After all, when God goes and does something (so he moves), or something is done beyond God's will (even if it is him allowing free will), these are positive properties that he does not contain. So all you may have done is proven the Universe exists, with all of ITs positive properties (which could include evolution and nothing to do with ID). But this is accepting points 6-8 for sake of argument, which I don't think are anything better than pure assertion. Back to the chalkboard. ------------------holmes
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Russell E. Rierson Inactive Member |
An interpretation of Anslem, Langan, Leibniz, and Goedel:
1.) The mind exists. 2.) The mind perceives existence. 3.) That which sustains the existence of mind, is logically prior to existence of mind. Therefore perceptions, "positive properties" P, have an existence. That which sustains the related "positive properties" of existence is necessarily a "holistic property"; because properties can only relate to other properties within a holistic medium, a holistic property is also a positive property . 4.) A positive property P, is real, iff, its negation ~P, is not real. 5.) A positive property is logically consistent. P or ~P , but not both. 6.) A property is God-like, iff, it sustains all positive properties. 7.) Therefore, being God-like is a holistic property, hence, being God-like is a positive property. 8.) NE[x]: x necessarily exists if it is an essential property 9.) Being NE is God-like 10.) Necessarily there is some x , such, that x is God-like.
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5845 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
rus writes: Therefore perceptions, "positive properties" P, have an existence. Without a perceiver (a mind), there are no perceptions. Perceptions are caused by a mind's interaction with some outside entity. All you are doing is making the argument for an external Universe, and then for some reason calling that Universe "God" (which implies intention, but the Universe may not actually have). I would add by the way, that even IF your argument is accepted it does not logically entail that the God did any intelligent designing of anything. The best you can get to is that it controls what we perceive, not that it does so in any manner to deluding what we are seeing, or that God created the perceiver via "special creation", rather than evolution. Back to the chalkboard. Personally, I would forget this line of reasoning. Pure logic will get you no further than "I think, therefore I am". Beyond this, metaphysics and ontology are mental masturbation... fun, but not procreative. ------------------holmes
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