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Author | Topic: SOPA/PIPA and 'Intellectual Property' | |||||||||||||||||||
Huntard Member (Idle past 2326 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
hooah212002 writes:
Yes, but you forgot the second part of that sentence:
Then it's not as simple as downloading bittorrent and surfing a bay of pirates because the very nature of torrenting is that you are sharing while you download. It takes quite a bit a fiddling to make your self "invisible" from the swarm. Much more work than ma' an pa' can muster. Huntard writes: but as long as you're not doing terrabytes per month, nobody's going to care over here either way. So for us, it really is that simple. Unless you upload an ungodly amount of content, you'll never get busted.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2326 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Tangle writes:
I was talking more about the technical part of it.
This is really at the core of it - there's plenty to stop people doing it. I'd be staggered if the majority of people know what a torrent is let alone how to get one. I'd be equally staggered if they also knew how to rip a DVD from it or connect their PC to their 20 year old CRT TV and play the pirated film.
Guess, we live in different technological environments. Literally everyone I know (well, apart from the bum down the street), has a flatscreen TV, and a PC. If they themselves do not know what torrents are, they've got people who can set up their PC's for them so that it literally doesn't become more then a few clicks and a search to start donwloading. Then of course, you simply set up a media player to their TV's, and a whole new world of content awaits them.
I'd be staggered again if the majority of people thought that it was ok to break the law and then go ahead and do it, in the knowledge that there is a risk involved - no matter how distant it might seem to us.
Well, over here, downloading a movie is legal, so that aspect goes out the window as well. But yes, that could be a reason not to do it. Again, I was referring to the technical part of it.
BUT in a world were all of those issues have gone away and everyone is used to the concept of no copyright, free content and no technology or knowledge barriers, then, of course everyone will do it. THAT's when Hollywood is dead.
Like I told Catholic Scientist, if I could download a digital HD copy of a movie as easily as I can now torrent it, and the price would be reasonable, I'd stop downloading it for free immediately. If say, something like Netflix came along, where I had to pay 20 Euros per month, and I could download and watch any movie I like at any time I like in HD, I'd say goodbye to torrents or usenet in a heartbeat. And funnily enough, most people I know also feel this way.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2326 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Indeed. Have you any reason to think I wouldn't? Do you know more about me than I do?
That's what you say now. In the world where it's as easy, as convenient and legal to get the movie for free, why would anyone pay a company like Netflix to get it?
But I already live in such a world... Want to know why I would pay for such a system? Because I think people should get paid for the work they perform. Basically the same reason I still pay for movies and music and games today, though, I will admit, not all of them. But I wouldn't be able to afford those at the current pricing anyway, so there's no sale lost.
Everything about human behaviour and economic theory says that the majority, if not all, would use the free method rather than the paid for method. To say otherwise requires a massive leap and flies in the face of common sense.
While my experiences may be subjective, it points me in to an entirely different conclusion. Should I now abandon my own "common sense" and ascribe to yours?
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2326 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes:
Fair enough.
But you gotta know what to search for. I doubt they've ever even heard the phrase "bit torrent". I guess I do.
Fuck that. I've got enough hassle as the family IT guy as it is. I don't want to add bit torrenting to the list.
Ok, just saying, you could if you wanted to.
I still watch DVD's...
I use them as coasters. But to each their own.
Red Box doesn't carry the latest releases and I don't think they have bluerays.
Ah well, let's say two dollars for blue rays then. And not carrying the latest releases is big nono. But If that's all you got, I guess it's not too bad.
No, not at all. That wouldn't have anything to do with it. They've got money, but they'd still take the free route if they could.
Why? Do they work for free?
Fair enough. I'm sure I could figure it out. But then, I'd rather spend that time playing SWTOR or BF3
I've found SWTOR to a bit "meh", for my taste. It's basically WoW, and I really don't enjoy that stuff anymore.
And that gets back to one of the points: I don't give a shit about patronizing the artists that made those games and I would have pirated them if I could have. But I can't, so they got my money.
Well, I do, and most people I know also do.
Yeah... The answer here is not things like SOPA, Hollywood needs to get their own version of Steam where we can just pay at home to watch the movie at home. That'd be tits.
'twould be double D's sir, double D's I tell you!
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2326 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
For those that think funding will become a problem for creators of content, I would like to point to Tim Schafer's "Double Fine". They asked the public to help them fund a game that has yet to be produced, and within 8 hours they had the required $ 400.000 they needed. Now, after about one and a half week, they reached the milestone of more than $ 1.500.000 that was donated to this project. Without anyone knowing what the final product will be like (beyond it being a point and click adventure).
Link to Kickstarter with info
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2326 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Indeed, so do I. This just shows that it is possible to come up with enough money from the public alone. Might I also point out that the average donation made to this project is $ 35 (at least it was this morning, didn't bother to check again) and that this is more than twice the minimal amount needed to receive this game for free when it's done?
To answer my own question, they will not be making the game copyright free - no surprise there then - and those that fund it get the game as a Steam download when it's ready. I think it's a great idea and good luck to them. I have a few questions along the lines of what happens if it takes 5 years to develop (a lot of games do)
I don't think this game will, for I don't think it will have cutting edge graphics, for one, and two, they gave an estimated release date of october 2012.
it needs more funding
They already have more than 4 times the amount they aimed for in the beginning.
or the game never gets published?
Unlikely, but in the event that happens, Tim Schafer's name will pretty much be ruined, and I don't think he'll ever be able to raise any funds again.
Also what happens if it's a huge hit - is there profit sharing?
Probably no, no. So what?
None of this has anything to do with copyright though......
Indeed, which is why I never claimed it did. I claimed this was an example of people being able to get the required funding for an idea from the public, something you guys said was impossible. You see, even if Tim Schafer had decided that he wasn't going to release this copyrighted, do you think it would've had any impact on the donations? As an aside, perhaps this wiki article about Double Fine Adventure is also worth a read.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2326 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Perdition writes:
Uhm, isn't this the case now, with copyright intact?
This would tend to concentrate power and wealth in a few hands, making it progressively harder and harder for anyone else to create anything. This would lead to a stifling of innovation; what is my motivation for developing a game, or coming up with a concept (which is a bit of work) if that effort will not be rewarded, if it will, in fact, only serve to make Activision richer?
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2326 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Poor little Hollywood, not making billions anymore, I weep for you...
And I never claimed it wasn't possible. I claimed - and still claim - that the removal of copyright would destroy Hollywood and that Lethal Weapon 18 would not get made in a world without it. But this thread is about copyright - this has nothing to do with copyright. This game is being developed under existing laws, I still doubt that it would be biilt if there was no copyright for the devlopers to protect future revenue.
Since they already have more than 4 times their aimed for budget, I'd advice them to make the game for twice the budget and keep the rest as profit, and give it away for free. Not having copyright would not have impacted the donations one bit.
I know a bit about the games industry and I would be extremely doubtful that a new game from an unknown developer could get this sort of funding or that games that take 3-5 years and $20m+ to develop (more usual than adventure games) could.
Like unknown developers could get that kind of money today, with nothing more than "let's make a shooter".
i also doubt that the public would have any confidence in the model if a game got canned before release (quite normal), was absolute crap because it had already been sold
Of course there are risks, but they are there today as well. You might not feel them directly, but indirectly you already pay for the flops the games industry produces.
or your mate also got it for free on the day of release.
Like we can't get it for free on the day of release right now.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2326 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Tangle writes:
You think it would've turned out different had Tim Schafer said: "listen, we would like to make a game, but we need money. Once we reach $400.000 we will make the game and give it away for free, all extra donations will be spent on the game, and if we get more than $x we will keep the rest as profit.
Well I'm not going round it all again - this is a really interesting business model and, like some of the music models now growing around the internet and performance, I'm sure some of these new models will work well.But it's all happening without changing an atom of the copyright law... and it all falls apart - imo - when the entire population has got used to free media easily available. (And no, neither of those two situations exist yet - not even close.)
Yes we are, the entire population already has free media easily available. Must I list the top 100 most popular torrents on pirate bay as an example?
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2326 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Perdition writes:
And you could set up a donation system and still get paid for your contribution.
Well, theoretically, I could sell my copyright to Activision and still get paid for my contribution.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2326 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Perdition writes:
No, sorry, don't fancy another MMO. However, make it a single player RPG and I might be tempted. What's the budget you're aiming for?
Cool. Cuz as it stands, I do have a pretty cool idea for an MMORPG. Wanna send me some money to get it started? I can't say much, I don't want Activision to steal it, but trust me, it's pretty awesome.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2326 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
hooah212002 writes:
Indeed, as I have said already in Message 248:
If you took the time to poke around, you'd notice quickly that a good percentage of habitual pirates would gladly pay for content that was in a consumer friendly format. Huntard writes:
Like I told Catholic Scientist, if I could download a digital HD copy of a movie as easily as I can now torrent it, and the price would be reasonable, I'd stop downloading it for free immediately. If say, something like Netflix came along, where I had to pay 20 Euros per month, and I could download and watch any movie I like at any time I like in HD, I'd say goodbye to torrents or usenet in a heartbeat. And funnily enough, most people I know also feel this way.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2326 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Sure they do, since those teenagers are their children/friends. And what's this about burning DVD's? Why on Earth would anyone do that? Just use digital copies.
Simply not true. There is a subset of the population - mostly teenage and young adult - that is fluent in torrents and places like Pirate Bay and are also clued up enough to know how to burn DVDs or have the gear to stream to different devices. The vast majority of everyone else does not inhabit that world. It would take a decade or more of good, user friendly, living room technology, an industry adjusted to new business models and a population normalised to legal copying and distribution before you can have a clue what the actual effecst of abolishing copyright would look like.
The technology is here, it's just that the people are to lazy to learn it. And even then, asking one of those teenagers to set it up for you will solve that problem. It's a days work, if you take your sweet time for the set up.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2326 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Perdition writes:
Then I'm sorry, but I won't be investing in your project. Good luck with finding other people to fund it. Though, might I suggest a bit more solid of a proposal, like Tim Schafer did on the website I linked to earlier (you know, what is the amount you're aiming for, what you will do with any excess money etc.).
Single player RPG might be possible for the idea I have, but I really think it lends itself better the a multi-player platform.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2326 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Well well, a study done by the university of Minnesota (amongst others) suggests that the advent of piracy hasn't cost the entertainment industry in America a single dime. That's right, not a single cent was lost due to piracy from the early 2000's on, looking at domestic income for the entertainment industry.
Abstract:
quote: So, there might be a loss worldwide, but this has more to do with the fact that fucking Hollywood doesn't release films everywhere at the same time, than that it does with piracy. Gee, haven't I been saying this all along, that people want to pay to see movies in cinemas, no matter if they can get the film for free online. Complete study found here.
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