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Author Topic:   "If I descended from an ape, how come apes are still here?"
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 106 of 286 (651422)
02-07-2012 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by amp1022
02-07-2012 12:31 PM


You convinced an uneducated mother that she is related to monkeys?
It's sufficient to visit a zoo to prove that humans are closely related to apes.
Truly, who could look into these eyes and not feel the spark of kinship? You'd have to be some kind of psychopath. I don't understand how creationists can go to the zoo and not leave convinced of the truth of evolution. I've never been able to understand that.
I am impressed really, that you actually had the nerve to try to brag about confusing the hell out of a woman who was probably perfectly content believing there was a loving caring God out there looking out for her and her children.
I missed the part in Glowby's story where he convinced the single mom to become an atheist. Can you identify that part by quoting the relevant passage? Otherwise it seems like you're criticizing him for something that he didn't actually do.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 107 of 286 (651432)
02-07-2012 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by amp1022
02-07-2012 12:31 PM


Evolution as a fact is a Christian position
Don't make the mistake of thinking that the discussion of Evolution versus Creationism is a choice between atheism and Christianity. Almost all major recognized Christian denominations acknowledge the fact that Evolution happened and that the ONLY explanation for the diversity we see today is the Theory of Evolution.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Evlreala
Member (Idle past 3075 days)
Posts: 88
From: Portland, OR United States of America
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 108 of 286 (651449)
02-07-2012 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
10-12-2011 5:37 AM


Tangle writes:
"If I descended from an ape, how come apes are still here?"
"Humans are apes, your question is nonsensical..."

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 109 of 286 (651455)
02-07-2012 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by amp1022
02-07-2012 12:31 PM


You convinced an uneducated mother that she is related to monkeys? That is your argument? Wow, have you recently talked a fish into drinking water or sold a block of cheese to a mouse? I am impressed really, that you actually had the nerve to try to brag about confusing the hell out of a woman who was probably perfectly content believing there was a loving caring God out there looking out for her and her children. Whether it is true or not, do you inform a child that he/she can develop a brain tumor at any time and die? Honestly, your kind of a jerk.
I guess if you have no sort of rational argument, an illiterate personal attack probably is the next best substitute.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by amp1022, posted 02-07-2012 8:30 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3705 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


(1)
Message 110 of 286 (651458)
02-07-2012 3:47 PM


Apologies in advance....
.....if this has been brought up before. I came across a statement by a fundie on "Fundies ay the darndest things" and thought I'd share. I'm paraphasing here.
In response to the topic question, aforementioned fundie stated that the standard evolutionary explanation that it was a gradual change over millenia didn't hold water because "monkeys live less than 1000 years". Now that last bit is a direct quote.

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 111 of 286 (651460)
02-07-2012 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Trixie
02-07-2012 3:47 PM


Re: Apologies in advance....
Just when you think they can't get any dumber ...

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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 112 of 286 (651462)
02-07-2012 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
10-12-2011 5:37 AM


Hi Tangle,
I read through this thread, and I'm not sure fi you came to a satisfactory conclusion or explanation, but at one point you were looking for an iconic animal to analogize the evolution of man from apes.
How about this: "If we descended from apes, why are there still apes?"
"Well, if dogs descended from wolves, why are there still wolves?"
You can then get into a discussion on what evolution actually says, but since "everyone knows" that dogs came from wolves, and since it is fairly easy to assume that the questioner knows that wolves still exist, it shows that you can have a divergent species without losing the original species.
Of course, the fact that humans had a hand in "creating" dogs, this might lead to a discussion of natural selection and artificial selection, or even ID-type misconceptions, but I think it is the best analogy that most people will understand.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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amp1022
Junior Member (Idle past 4432 days)
Posts: 13
Joined: 02-05-2012


Message 113 of 286 (651522)
02-07-2012 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Dr Adequate
02-07-2012 3:37 PM


Almost all major recognized Christian denominations acknowledge the fact that Evolution happened and that the ONLY explanation for the diversity we see today is the Theory of Evolution.
Really? Wow! I had no idea that creationists had waved the white flag. Well thanks for letting me know that THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION (as you put it) is a proven FACT... the theory is a fact. Got it. And even the worlds leading religions have given up on the idea of divine creation being the reason for the diversity of species? Incredible! Congratulations on your victory! Oh by the way if you could reference a few of those records showing that the theory of evolution has been accepted as strictly fact by our overwhelmingly christian nation, that would be nothing short of a miracle since there are no such records.
I guess if you have no sort of rational argument, an illiterate personal attack probably is the next best substitute.
It was never meant to be an argument with his views, I just thought it was a cruel thing to do. Sorry for pointing it out. I realize that these days people prefer that there faults go unspoken as though that makes them less of a fault. One question though, ILLITERATE? Ummmm.... do you know what that word means? I never once referenced the actual argument he was making so where dose the illiteracy come in? I can read and I am college educated. Those two things make me the exact opposite of illiterate. Look it up buddy. I won't take it personal though since you obviously did not put much thought into what you wrote. NO I am not calling you stupid so do not say I made another "illiterate personal attack".

Common sense will answer most questions that science struggles with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-07-2012 3:37 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 115 by DrJones*, posted 02-07-2012 8:48 PM amp1022 has not replied
 Message 116 by jar, posted 02-07-2012 8:50 PM amp1022 has not replied
 Message 117 by Percy, posted 02-07-2012 9:33 PM amp1022 has not replied
 Message 118 by Theodoric, posted 02-07-2012 9:54 PM amp1022 has not replied
 Message 120 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-07-2012 10:47 PM amp1022 has not replied
 Message 125 by Taq, posted 02-08-2012 11:38 AM amp1022 has not replied
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(3)
Message 114 of 286 (651524)
02-07-2012 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by amp1022
02-07-2012 8:30 PM


Well thanks for letting me know that THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION (as you put it) is a proven FACT... the theory is a fact. Got it.
Before you spout crap you should probably have a basic idea of what you are talking about.
I would suggest that you look up what a scientific theory is but we both know you wont so I will post a link and a definition for you.
quote:
Theory: A theory is what one or more hypotheses become once they have been verified and accepted to be true. A theory is an explanation of a set of related observations or events based upon proven hypotheses and verified multiple times by detached groups of researchers.
Source
A scientific theory is not an educated guess that is a different definition of theory.
A scientific theory is the first definition here. You are
equivocating it with the second definition.
quote:
1:
a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity. Synonyms: principle, law, doctrine.
2.
a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact. Synonyms: idea, notion hypothesis, postulate. Antonyms: practice, verification, corroboration, substantiation.
You can look up the term equivocation yourself if you do not know what it means.
If you want to discuss Evolution intelligently learn the correct meaning of words. Until then maybe you should not bother posting crap like this.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 115 of 286 (651525)
02-07-2012 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by amp1022
02-07-2012 8:30 PM


Oh by the way if you could reference a few of those records showing that the theory of evolution has been accepted as strictly fact by our overwhelmingly christian nation, that would be nothing short of a miracle since there are no such records.
That is not what jar said in his post, perhaps you should read it again.

God separated the races and attempting to mix them is like attempting to mix water with diesel fuel.- Buzsaw Message 177
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(4)
Message 116 of 286 (651526)
02-07-2012 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by amp1022
02-07-2012 8:30 PM


Learn how to quote and how to read.
amp1022 writes:
Almost all major recognized Christian denominations acknowledge the fact that Evolution happened and that the ONLY explanation for the diversity we see today is the Theory of Evolution.
Really? Wow! I had no idea that creationists had waved the white flag. Well thanks for letting me know that THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION (as you put it) is a proven FACT... the theory is a fact. Got it. And even the worlds leading religions have given up on the idea of divine creation being the reason for the diversity of species? Incredible! Congratulations on your victory! Oh by the way if you could reference a few of those records showing that the theory of evolution has been accepted as strictly fact by our overwhelmingly christian nation, that would be nothing short of a miracle since there are no such records.
Actually what I said was that Evolution was a fact.
The Theory of Evolution is a model. The first clue is that it is called "The Theory of Evolution".
Creationist have not waved the white flag, they are just plain wrong. They will continue to be wrong.
And of course I can present evidence that Christians acknowledge that Evolution is a fact (note that I said Evolution) and that the Theory of Evolution is the only model that explains the diversity of life seen today.
You can begin with the Clergy Letter Project currently signed by over 12.000 US Christian Clergy where they say:
quote:
We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as one theory among others is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge.
In addition the US is not and has never been a Christian nation, thank God.
Edited by jar, : left out the word 'with'

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by amp1022, posted 02-07-2012 8:30 PM amp1022 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 117 of 286 (651528)
02-07-2012 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by amp1022
02-07-2012 8:30 PM


Hi Amp1022,
I think you may be interpreting Jar's post in ways he never intended. When he said that most Christian denominations acknowledge that evolution has happened, he didn't intend it as a claim about creationists or about the theory of evolution.
You may also have misinterpreted Dr Adequate's use of the word illiterate. While one of the definitions does mean unable to read or write, I think in this case the intended definition was the one having to do with unfamiliarity with a field of knowledge, in this case evolution.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 118 of 286 (651529)
02-07-2012 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by amp1022
02-07-2012 8:30 PM


Illiterate defined
ILLITERATE? Ummmm.... do you know what that word means?
Yes he does. You are showing the inability to understand that words can have multiple meanings.
Again back to the dictionary.
quote:
Illiterate
adjective
1.
unable to read and write: an illiterate group.
2.
having or demonstrating very little or no education.
3.
showing lack of culture, especially in language and literature.
4.
displaying a marked lack of knowledge in a particular field: He is musically illiterate.
You see he was using 4. There are other definitions of the word than 1.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by amp1022, posted 02-07-2012 8:30 PM amp1022 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 119 of 286 (651531)
02-07-2012 10:43 PM


One the question raised in the OP ...
... "If I descended from an ape, how come apes are still here?"; it looks like the full genome from another relative primate of ours is being released.
The Denisovian genome sequence was released by the Max Planck Institute. The DNA comes from a relative of ours that lived about 30,000 years ago.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 120 of 286 (651533)
02-07-2012 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by amp1022
02-07-2012 8:30 PM


It was never meant to be an argument with his views, I just thought it was a cruel thing to do.
Cruelty usually involves hurting people. The idea that anyone got hurt is not supported by glowby's narrative, which actually includes the words: "We were happy with the results".
One question though, ILLITERATE?
If you prefer, semi-literate.

This message is a reply to:
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