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Author | Topic: Where Did The (Great Flood) Water Come From And Where Did It Go? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member (Idle past 250 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi edge,
edge writes: Where? And no, you did not say 'underwater'. You said under the bottom of the ocean. Everywhere that wellbores have produced samples of material that shows it has been exposed to weathering. Where did I say, "under the bottom of the ocean"? I did a search and can't find where I made that statement.
edge writes: It would not be the 'bottom of the ocean'. Are you suggesting that the Mariana trench is the only place that can be called the bottom of the ocean?
edge writes: It would not be the 'bottom of the ocean'. It sure wouldn't be dry land. It would be covered with water, which would make it sea-bottom.
edge writes: How many years ago? It is like the Bible it does not give a date. It just testifies that it was.
edge writes: When the water you are talking about, the FOD, was not seawater in the first place. You are saying it was primitive water, locked up in the mantle. Yes I said it was water that was trapped but I don't remember mentioning the mantle. I thought I said the water came down in comets and then was mixed and covered with material from asteroids hitting the Earth and making it larger over time. There had to be 1.372e+18 tons of lifeform materials buried to produce the gas that is under the surface of the Earth along with enough to produce the natural gas and coal. If I understand correctly those materials had to be covered before they decomposed in order to produce the oil, natural gas, and coal. Now as to whether salt water that later covered the land migrated into the water beneath as pressure was applied by the weight of the water I do not know. But I think a good guess would be that it did.
edge writes: I will consider my job done. What job unless you want to present the evidence that you have alluded too. Since you choose not to do that you only have an agenda. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member (Idle past 250 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Percy,
Percy writes: What does continental crust at the bottom of the ocean have to do with where the water came from before the flood and where it went after? Everything. Continental crust (material that has been weathered) had to be exposed to the sunlight and weathering conditions in the past. For that to happen it had to be above water. Thus the Earth was smaller at one time than it is now. The alternative would be that there is no such thing as plate tectonics and the water in the ocean just has been at different levels at times in the past. My crazy thinking is that the Earth was much smaller when created in Genesis 1:1. In the course of existence there was much vegetation and animal life on earth and then there was a massive number of asteroids and comets that hit part of the Earth which ceased. Then in the course of existence plant and animal life was restored to that portion of the Earth and then another part of the Earth received the asteroids and comets covering every living thing in a particular area. This continued until the Earth was completed. So along with the material for the oil, natural gas, and coal there wasmuch water buried. Then the water was added to cover all land as is found in Genesis 1:2. I have asked several times for someone to present a mechanism for the materials required to produce the oil, natural gas, and coal that is in the Earth to be able to get to where it is at, with no response. There is oil and natural gas at 30,000 feet below the sea-bed in the gulf of Mexico as well as water. How did it get there? God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 957 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
Buz, the mass of the current oceans is about 1.5 e +18 tons. This is enough to cover a "billiard ball" smoothed earth by over a kilometer of water.
Are you now going to tell me that "lifeform materials" grew solidly packed over the whole Earth to a couple of kilometers deep when Noah was 599 years old? Wood and meat are pretty close to the density of water, so that is how much volume your 1.372 quintillion tons of life would take up. How does your "model" make this work?"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken
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edge Member (Idle past 1928 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Everywhere that wellbores have produced samples of material that shows it has been exposed to weathering.
What do you mean by 'weathering'? If I see weathering of rock in Iceland, does that mean that it is continental? And what portion of the oceans have been drilled? Did they find continental crust on the DSDP project?
Where did I say, "under the bottom of the ocean"? I did a search and can't find where I made that statement.
I must have interpreted this to be your statement. However, the point still stands. The largest part of the earth covered by oceans is abyssal plains. There is no continental crust there, nor is there any at the mid-ocean ridges, nor at oceanic island arcs. Do you still want to get your global flood water from continental rocks?
Yes I said it was water that was trapped but I don't remember mentioning the mantle.
You didn't. Which is kind of odd, actually. Most YECs latch on to the idea that the matle is a huge source of water.
I thought I said the water came down in comets and then was mixed and covered with material from asteroids hitting the Earth and making it larger over time.
Then you are saying it was primitive water. No problem there. However, why would all of this water stay in the ground for so long after formation of the earth?
There had to be 1.372e+18 tons of lifeform materials buried to produce the gas that is under the surface of the Earth along with enough to produce the natural gas and coal.
The point being?
If I understand correctly those materials had to be covered before they decomposed in order to produce the oil, natural gas, and coal.
Irrelevant as far as I can see. The point is that they were buried, the gas and oil were generated and started to migrate toward the surface. Why wouldn't the water do that?
Now as to whether salt water that later covered the land migrated into the water beneath ...
Why would that happen? Why would water flow against the pressure?
... as pressure was applied by the weight of the water I do not know. But I think a good guess would be that it did.
Again, silliness. Water would not flow from low to high pressure. And were do you think that pressure came from? Did it just magically appear? Edited by edge, : No reason given.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 957 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
There is oil and natural gas at 30,000 feet below the sea-bed in the gulf of Mexico as well as water. How did it get there? In the GoM, it got there largely through the courtesy of the Mississippi River and its ancestral river systems. Organic matter sank in shallow, oxygen-poor water and was buried along with clays to make shales. Shales were buried by sands and more shales. When burial was deep enough, the shales got hot enough to be "cooked" to form oil and gas. Some of that oil and gas migrated out of the shales into adjacent sands, where it is fairly easy to get out by sticking a pipe into the sand. It tends to be overpressured down there because the sand it resides in is weak and compressible - so pressures can get close to the whole load of the overlying rock. That can be about 1 psi per foot of depth. A pipe full of oil will exert less than 0.4 psi/foot of depth at the bottom of the hole. So (1.0 -0.4)= 0.6 psi times 30,000 feet = 18,000 psi at the wellhead, on surface. And that's with no gas to lighten that 0.4 psi/foot up even more.
Non-USA members: I apologize deeply for my pounds per square inch and feet. That's the way the American oil patch thinks, and I'm too frazzled at the moment to get you bars/megapascals and meters. Edited by Coragyps, : clarity, I hope
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edge Member (Idle past 1928 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Everything.
That is not the definition of continental crust.
Continental crust (material that has been weathered)... ... had to be exposed to the sunlight and weathering conditions in the past. For that to happen it had to be above water. Thus the Earth was smaller at one time than it is now.
How does that follow?
The alternative would be that there is no such thing as plate tectonics and the water in the ocean just has been at different levels at times in the past.
Why is that exclusive of plate tectonics?
My crazy thinking is that the Earth was much smaller when created in Genesis 1:1. In the course of existence there was much vegetation and animal life on earth and then there was a massive number of asteroids and comets that hit part of the Earth which ceased.
And you have a record of this bombardment somewhere?
Then in the course of existence plant and animal life was restored to that portion of the Earth and then another part of the Earth received the asteroids and comets covering every living thing in a particular area. This continued until the Earth was completed.
Then you must have massive layers of impact ejecta separating coal seams, right?
So along with the material for the oil, natural gas, and coal there was much water buried.
So, you don't believe that these piles of sediments were dewatered during burial?
Then the water was added to cover all land as is found in Genesis 1:2.
I do not recall such a request. However, it would involve rather huge undertaking to cover all of these bases. You may have heard of petroleum geology courses that are given at universities, along with classes on coal formation and the development, migration and accumulation of oil. Have you ever tried one or two of these? I have asked several times for someone to present a mechanism for the materials required to produce the oil, natural gas, and coal that is in the Earth to be able to get to where it is at, with no response. Really, please answer this question. It is not rhetorical. I don't suppose you would accept the idea that there were huge swamps and forests that were buried (and dewatered, actually) to form extensive coal beds at several locations and times in the history of the earth.
There is oil and natural gas at 30,000 feet below the sea-bed in the gulf of Mexico as well as water.
So you really don't think that dewatering is part of the lithification of sedimentary rocks. Do you know that this is going on in the Gulf of Mexico?
How did it get there?
It is not a matter of how it got there. It is a matter of when water is expelled from the sedimentary pile compared to hydrocarbons. Since oil takes time, heat and pressure to form under natural conditions, it is easy to assume that most of the water is gone from these rocks before oil and gas are generated. Now, where it migrates is something else. However, the whole point here is that there is a huge amount of the ocean basins that does not generate oil or gas and would not trap significant water as per your model. And yet, you must raise the sea level of the entire earth, including that which was previously emergent. There is no way you can do this just using supracrustal oil-bearing rocks. Edited by edge, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Continental crust (material that has been weathered) WTF?
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Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16113 Joined:
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It would require 39 feet and 1 inch to cover the dry land with 39 feet of water. No, it would take 39 feet and 1 inch to cover the valleys with 39 feet and 1 inch of water, and 39 feet to cover the 1 inch high hills with 39 feet of water. Since the surface of the water must be level, the depth of the water must vary from place to place according to whether it lies above the lofty summits of the 1 inch high hills or above the shadowy chasms of the 1 inch deep valleys that lie between them.
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Percy Member Posts: 22888 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
ICANT writes: Continental crust (material that has been weathered)... Continental crust is not seabed material that has been exposed to the elements. Continental crust is defined by the manner in which it is produced. It forms at subduction zones where the lighter portions of seafloor material are trimmed off and remain above instead of subducting down into the mantle. Continental crust is significantly less dense than oceanic crust and is unlikely to exist on the seafloor to any significant extent. Its lesser density would make it very likely to rise up above sea level. If you can provide a reference to where "scientest with Phd's have said there is continental crust underwater in the Atlantic and Indian ocean" I think we'll discover that either you misunderstood or that they were referring to very tiny pieces of continental crust.
I have asked several times for someone to present a mechanism for the materials required to produce the oil, natural gas, and coal that is in the Earth to be able to get to where it is at, with no response. Whoever you were asking is to be congratulated for staying on topic. Why don't you ask your question in a thread where it would be on topic? This thread is for creationists to describe where the water came from during the flood and where it went to after. As near as I can gather, your model is that the Earth used to be much smaller. It was bombarded over long periods of time by asteroids and comets, and much water, vegetation and living creatures became deeply buried, providing the source for deeply buried oil and water and fossils. The water emerged during the flood, then returned to its burial points after the flood. I'm just trying to get an idea of what the complete story is. Please correct as you see fit. --Percy
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 805 days) Posts: 921 Joined:
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In my flood model, the water released from subterranean waters does not come forth to the surface as steam. I do not subscribe to Walt Brown's hydroplate theory, although I used to. The noahic crust of the earth was bombarded with meteorites and asteroids. This shattered the crust over a period of 40 days. The water underneath the crust would not turn into steam because the super-fragmented crust would not put much pressure on the water. The crust would simply sink to the bottom of the voluminous subterranean water compartment. The water would be hot, but it would not be steam.
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JonF Member (Idle past 390 days) Posts: 6174 Joined:
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Try calculating the energy released by the conversion of the potential and kinetic energy from so many comets and asteroids into heat, and you'll find the water will be steam all right, and the surface of the Earth will be molten. Not that any macroscopic life will remain after the blast waves to see it.
The asteroid that wiped out (or at least severely impacted ;-) ) the dinosaurs was much too small to have the effect you are looking for.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 957 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined:
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The noahic crust of the earth was bombarded with meteorites and asteroids. That's nice. Have you ever heard of kinetic energy, Foreveryoung? Do you know how much kinetic energy gets converted into heat when a 100,000-kg space rock hits the Earth at a speed of 7000 meters per second? Yeah, I thought not. I get 4.9 trillion joules. Do you know how much heat that translates into? No? It's enough to heat the rock plus about 600 times the rock's weight of the rock it hit by 100 degrees Celsius. I think that even cool water might boil a bit."The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken
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Trixie Member (Idle past 3928 days) Posts: 1011 From: Edinburgh Joined:
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The noahic crust of the earth was bombarded with meteorites and asteroids. This shattered the crust over a period of 40 days. [/qs]
You'd think that would deserve a passing mention. God wouldn't have needed a flood to wipe out all life, the asteroids would have done it!
foreveryoung writes: The water underneath the crust would not turn into steam because the super-fragmented crust would not put much pressure on the water. The crucial question is how much pressure the crust was putting on the water before it was fragmented. What do you think happens to 500C water (kept liquid by pressure) when that pressure is released?
foreveryoung writes: The crust would simply sink to the bottom of the voluminous subterranean water compartment. So the entire crust sinks into the subterranean water. That means that your subterranean water is beneath the crust at the mantle-crust boundary. Have you any idea of the temperatures there?
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ICANT Member (Idle past 250 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined:
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Hi Percy,
Percy writes: Continental crust is not seabed material that has been exposed to the elements. Much seabed may have never been exposed to weathering as continental crust. But any material that is found on or under the top layers of seabed that has been weathered had to have existed above sea level.
Percy writes: It forms at subduction zones where the lighter portions of seafloor material are trimmed off and remain above instead of subducting down into the mantle. According to the so called plate tectonics theory when two oceanic plates collide the younger will ride over the older. When a continental plate collides with a oceanic plate the oceanic plate will dive under the continental plate. When two continental plates collide it makes a mess as neither dive and mountains are created. If that is wrong please correct me.
Percy writes: Continental crust is significantly less dense than oceanic crust and is unlikely to exist on the seafloor to any significant extent. But if it does something is wrong with what has been presented as fact.
Percy writes: Whoever you were asking is to be congratulated for staying on topic. Why don't you ask your question in a thread where it would be on topic? But it is on topic as that material got under miles of solid material the same way and time the water for the flood got there.
Percy writes: As near as I can gather, your model is that the Earth used to be much smaller. It was bombarded over long periods of time by asteroids and comets, and much water, vegetation and living creatures became deeply buried, providing the source for deeply buried oil and water and fossils. The water emerged during the flood, then returned to its burial points after the flood. You were doing great until you got to the disposal of the flood waters. I have not really covered that yet. Enough water had to receed so that the ark rested on dry land and that there was a sizable piece of dry land available for animals and humans. But all land mass did not have to be exposed at the moment Noah disembarked from the ark. There are maps of a flat earth land mass sourounded by water. The only way people would have thought that, was because they could go all around the land mass at the edge of the water. The Bible says the land mass was divided in the days of Peleg. He lived only 239 years. So the maximum time for the division of the land was 239 years less the amount of time he lived before the people were scattred over the face of the dry land. I think it was instaneous movement. But I am told that would create a lot of heat. At the present plate tectonics theory teaches the water in the bottom of the lithosphere and in the top of the asthenosphere cools the movement of the plates. Could somebody explain to me how the water that is so hot that it has become one in hydrous minerals has much cooling to provide? One of my stupid questions. If the contintents were separated instantly wouldn't a lot of water be superheated past the point of being steam becoming hydrous minerals as it became a part of the asthenosphere.? Thus the water would disappear into the mantle, leaving a lot of dry land in the process. Water deep in the Earth. The Kola Superdeep Borehole scientist was suprised at the amount of water that was found all the way down to 9656 m deep during their drilling. They had to stop at 12,262 m as the temperature reached 180 C.
Here is a PPP the first one on the list that discusses the Caribbean plate. I will get some more information for you later as I have some things I have to take care of now. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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edge Member (Idle past 1928 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Much seabed may have never been exposed to weathering as continental crust. But any material that is found on or under the top layers of seabed that has been weathered had to have existed above sea level.
Not necessarily. In fact, most sea-floor rocks are weathered to some degree. And no, there are plenty of oceanic crustal rocks that are weathered and eroded. You are way out of your expertise here, IC. I know that it doesn't embarrass you to be so wrong about things, but maybe you could show some respect and learn a little bit more about earth sciences.
According to the so called plate tectonics theory when two oceanic plates collide the younger will ride over the older.
It is not wrong. When a continental plate collides with a oceanic plate the oceanic plate will dive under the continental plate. When two continental plates collide it makes a mess as neither dive and mountains are created. If that is wrong please correct me. In general. However, there are important exceptions and, frankly, I'm pretty sure you don't understand the dynamics of why these boundaries are the way the are.
But if it does something is wrong with what has been presented as fact.
Possibly something is wrong, but we probably know why there are exceptions.
But it is on topic as that material got under miles of solid material the same way and time the water for the flood got there.
Except that the water does not spread out into the mantle. Most of it returns to the surface quickly. That is why island arc volanoes have a lot more water associated with them.
... There are maps of a flat earth land mass sourounded by water. The only way people would have thought that, was because they could go all around the land mass at the edge of the water.
Do you have a point here?
At the present plate tectonics theory teaches the water in the bottom of the lithosphere and in the top of the asthenosphere cools the movement of the plates.
This is news to me. Please document.
Could somebody explain to me how the water that is so hot that it has become one in hydrous minerals has much cooling to provide?
Maybe if you could show us where PT says this, we could help you. To me it sounds like you've got some professional YEC's message and then garbled it beyond recognition.
If the contintents were separated instantly wouldn't a lot of water be superheated past the point of being steam becoming hydrous minerals as it became a part of the asthenosphere.?
I have no idea what you are trying to say here. What water? What hydrous minerals? Where does this happen? Do you have any evidence for 'instantaneous parting'?
Thus the water would disappear into the mantle, leaving a lot of dry land in the process.
Why would water 'disappear into the mantle' where there are higher pressures and higher temperatures? I understand this model, but it doesn't do what you think it does.
Water deep in the Earth. The Kola Superdeep Borehole scientist was suprised at the amount of water that was found all the way down to 9656 m deep during their drilling. They had to stop at 12,262 m as the temperature reached 180 C.
Nothing surprising here. They drilled stable, cold and old continental crust. They were nowhere near the asthenosphere. Edited by edge, : No reason given.
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