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Author Topic:   Empathy ... in rats ...
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1 of 12 (643858)
12-09-2011 10:34 AM


New study shows empathy in rats:
quote:
... rats can be compassionate. They freed another trapped rat in their cage, even when yummy chocolate served as a tempting distraction. Twenty-three of the 30 rats in the study opened the cage. The rats could have hogged all the chocolate before freeing their partners, but often didn't, choosing to first help, then share.
Study author Peggy Mason of the University of Chicago said females showed more empathy than males. All six females freed their trapped partner; 17 of the 24 males did so.
Mason said the study showed that pro-social empathy is not limited to humans and primates as some people had thought. The research is reported in Thursday's journal Science.
Read more here.
Evolved behavior in social species to help others in the group before being selfish.
Note the higher empathy of females vs males.
To me (personal opinion) the female behavior shows an extension of mothering behavior (looking out for young) to others (who can also possibly help look out for young).
We are empathic because we are social animals, and we are self-organized into groups by our empathy for other members in the group.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 12-11-2011 7:20 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 5 by Wounded King, posted 12-12-2011 1:06 PM RAZD has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2 of 12 (643859)
12-11-2011 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
12-09-2011 10:34 AM


This doesn't feel structured like a debate topic. It sort of feels like it belongs in Links and Information.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3 of 12 (643860)
12-12-2011 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
12-11-2011 7:20 AM


okay.
If it sparks a debate then it can be move to an appropriate debate forum
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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AdminModulous
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Message 4 of 12 (643862)
12-12-2011 12:33 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Empathy ... in rats ... thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 5 of 12 (643867)
12-12-2011 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
12-09-2011 10:34 AM


Have to say, the difference in n between the male and female samples makes me cautious of putting too much weight on the discrepancy between the two in terms of the 'empathy' shown.
I'm surprised Zi Ko hasn't been all over this already.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 12-09-2011 10:34 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by RAZD, posted 12-12-2011 8:35 PM Wounded King has not replied
 Message 9 by zi ko, posted 12-13-2011 10:18 AM Wounded King has not replied
 Message 10 by Taz, posted 12-13-2011 2:13 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 6 of 12 (643909)
12-12-2011 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Wounded King
12-12-2011 1:06 PM


Hi Wounded King,
Even the numbers for the males are low in terms of comparison (one wonders why so few rats were used).
... journal Science 08dec11
Science | AAAS
Just a moment...
quote:
Whereas human pro-social behavior is often driven by empathic concern for another, it is unclear whether nonprimate mammals experience a similar motivational state. To test for empathically motivated pro-social behavior in rodents, we placed a free rat in an arena with a cagemate trapped in a restrainer. After several sessions, the free rat learned to intentionally and quickly open the restrainer and free the cagemate. Rats did not open empty or object-containing restrainers. They freed cagemates even when social contact was prevented. When liberating a cagemate was pitted against chocolate contained within a second restrainer, rats opened both restrainers and typically shared the chocolate. Thus, rats behave pro-socially in response to a conspecific’s distress, providing strong evidence for biological roots of empathically motivated helping behavior.
Slightly different slant: it looks like they were testing for the presence of empathic behavior, and only needed a positive outcome in some of the tests. In this regard the number of positives is well above what could be inferred to be random behavior.
Just a moment...
quote:
A greater proportion of female rats (6/6) than male rats (17/24) in the trapped condition became door-openers (P < 0.05, χ-square), which is consistent with suggestions that females are more empathic than males (7, 12, 13). Further, female rats in the trapped condition opened the restrainer door at a shorter latency than males on days 7 to 12 (P < 0.01, MMA, Fig. 3A). Female rats were also more active than males in the trapped condition (P < 0.001, ANOVA) but not in the empty condition (Fig. 3B).
And the testing was a little more complicated than simple single event opening tests.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Wounded King, posted 12-12-2011 1:06 PM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by zi ko, posted 12-13-2011 9:46 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 7 of 12 (643941)
12-13-2011 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by RAZD
12-12-2011 8:35 PM


quote:
"Thus, the most parsimonious interpretation of the observed helping behavior is that rats free their cagemate in order to end distress, either their own or that of the trapped rat, that is associated with the circumstances of the trapped cagemate. ".....
"The presence of empathy in nonhuman animals is gaining support in the scientific community (20—26), although skeptics remain (27). In the current study, the free rat was not simply empathically sensitive to another rat’s distress but acted intentionally to liberate a trapped conspecific. The ability to understand and actively respond to the affective state of a conspecific is crucial for an animal’s successful navigation in the social arena (4) and ultimately benefits group survival."
It seems their conclusion that ending distress is the main motvation for rats act, is fitting so well with my evolution hypothesis.
( http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com )
How, the followers of random mutations explain this "ability to....... survival"?
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 8 of 12 (643943)
12-13-2011 9:56 AM


But for the grace of God go you or I.......
Perhaps what we call empathy is merely the other rats acting in their own self interest. I could not enjoy a nice peaceful dinner if some human was caught in some cage writhing in front of me.
What they should do is perform the experiment where the rats do not have to see the cage mate in the trap, but be aware he is there.
Then if they go out of their way to free them they may be on to something.

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 Message 12 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-14-2011 1:59 AM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 9 of 12 (643946)
12-13-2011 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Wounded King
12-12-2011 1:06 PM


Hi W.K
i am not surprised by these findings. I was almost expecting them. I am waiting now the moment scientists will prove empathy's affect on DNA or equivalent neural sites and its role to evolution.

This message is a reply to:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 10 of 12 (643965)
12-13-2011 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Wounded King
12-12-2011 1:06 PM


Wounded King writes:
I'm surprised Zi Ko hasn't been all over this already.
I've been on and off from time to time, mostly off. Wanna tell me in a couple short sentences what this is about?

This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 11 of 12 (643996)
12-13-2011 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by 1.61803
12-13-2011 9:56 AM


Re: But for the grace of God go you or I.......
I could not enjoy a nice peaceful dinner if some human was caught in some cage writhing in front of me.
But a chocholate, on the other hand, would at least lead me to some serious consideration.........

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by 1.61803, posted 12-13-2011 9:56 AM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 12 of 12 (644001)
12-14-2011 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by 1.61803
12-13-2011 9:56 AM


Re: But for the grace of God go you or I.......
Perhaps what we call empathy is merely the other rats acting in their own self interest. I could not enjoy a nice peaceful dinner if some human was caught in some cage writhing in front of me.
But that, surely is because you feel empathy. You wouldn't mind something equally visually distracting, such as an aquarium.
What they should do is perform the experiment where the rats do not have to see the cage mate in the trap, but be aware he is there.
That would reduce the empathy in humans too. If we were as distressed by the abstract knowledge that people whom we can't see are suffering as we are by actually seeing people suffering, the world would be a very different place.

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 Message 8 by 1.61803, posted 12-13-2011 9:56 AM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
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