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Author Topic:   Hyperbole in the Bible
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 84 of 124 (640632)
11-11-2011 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Panda
11-10-2011 10:08 PM


Re: Great Kings
The fact that you haven't told me how one detects hyperbole in other books we read, tells me you probably don't know.
Just from the responses so far, even in nonreligious writings we have a difference of opinion on what is understood as hyperbole. That 's what it boils down to, opinion.
Declaring that my arguments are just my opinion, doesn't negate my argument. Your argument, if you get around to providing one, is also your opinion. We are looking at works that are over 2000 years old. No author or audience to consult. So please stop acting like there is some absolute correct answer out there.
I have provded examples of hyperbole and various definitions. That is my support for why I feel the verse is hyperbole. There is no certificate of absolute hyperbole to flash before you.
Since this is a debate forum, the opposite position is that the sentence is not hyperbole. If, and only if, you are taking the opposite position and feel that the sentence is not a hyperbole, then yes you do need to provide support for that reasoning.
If you don't plan to support a position and just want to critisize, then we have nothing to debate.
All we can do is provide support for our reasoning concerning the opinion we present.

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 Message 83 by Panda, posted 11-10-2011 10:08 PM Panda has replied

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 85 of 124 (640635)
11-11-2011 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by NoNukes
11-10-2011 9:33 PM


Gnats and Camels
In a metaphor the objects are being compared without the use of like or as. The gnat and camel are not being compared in that manner. Example: Love is a rose.
The exaggeration isn't relative to what the Pharisees are doing. The exaggeration is the swallowing of the camel. We can't swallow a camel. It is an extreme visual.
I didn't bring this verse into the dicussion; but it is a good example of hyperbole in the Bible. If some have difficulty seeing the hyperbole in a verse that isn't disputed how much harder will it be for them to see potential hyperbole in disputed passages?
Metaphors can also contain hyperbole. Example: My work place is a Nazi death camp.
The Nazi death camp provides an extreme image and is hyperbole. So my example is a metaphor with hyperbole.
The gnat and camel verse is not a metaphor.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 89 of 124 (640647)
11-11-2011 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by NoNukes
11-11-2011 9:13 AM


Re: Gnats and Camels
I assumed you understood I'm talking about the sentence, not the paragraph.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 95 of 124 (640677)
11-11-2011 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Bailey
11-11-2011 1:45 PM


Re: The Kings of Exaggeration (Minus the Humor or Irony)
Hyperbole is exaggeration for effect.
Hyperbole can include contradiction, but it's not a requirement.
Hyperbole can be for humorous effect but it's not a requirement
Please show outside support that hyperbole must contain all three.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Bailey, posted 11-11-2011 1:45 PM Bailey has replied

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 99 of 124 (640712)
11-12-2011 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Bailey
11-11-2011 8:02 PM


Re: The Kings of Exaggeration (Minus the Humor or Irony)
In Message 93, you stated that hyperbole was a specific type of exaggeration producing irony etc.
Irony is basically contradiction.
Hyperbole is exaggeration for effect.
I understood your conclusion to say that there is no hyperbole concerning the kings because the exaggeration contained no irony and no humor.
What I understood from that was that you feel that intentional exaggeration can only be considered hyperbole if it contains both irony and humor.
That's why I said hyperbole can contain contradiction, which is irony, but it isn't a requirement. Hyperbole can contain humor, but it isn't a requirement.
I have not claimed that hyperbole must contain either or both irony and humor.
If your contention is that hyperbole must contain either irony or humor or both, please show outside support for that premise.
As you said the verses use the universal negative. Neither before nor after and absolutes indicate excess.
I agree the auther is probably saying the kings were unique. Each can be unique in their own way.

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 Message 96 by Bailey, posted 11-11-2011 8:02 PM Bailey has replied

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 103 of 124 (640759)
11-12-2011 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Bailey
11-12-2011 12:49 PM


Re: The Kings of Exaggeration (Minus the Humor or Irony)
You still didn't provide support that hyperbole must contain irony or humor.
The universal negative is my basis for viewing the verses as possible hyperbole. As you said, absolutes Are excess.
The following link contains examples considered to be hyperbole. In that list the are some that contain absolutes.
Hyperbole Examples
I have now provided support for my reasoning again.
When we look at the thesaurus we see that hyperbole and exaggeration are synonyms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Bailey, posted 11-12-2011 12:49 PM Bailey has replied

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 107 of 124 (640782)
11-13-2011 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Bailey
11-12-2011 5:27 PM


Exaggeration vs hyperbole
I am so overwhemed by the wealth of information you have bestowed upon me. If you had provided any more I might have actually learned something.
Although they are synonyms, there apparently is a difference that college people are loathe to share.
So with the help of my trusty internet and waning comprehension skills, I found that basically (this means I'm not going to give a dissertaion with slides to cover every minute detail concerning the differences. I'm just covering what I see as the funamenital nature of the beast.) the difference is that the exaggeration used in an exaggeration is not beyond possibility, but in hyperbole it is beyond possibility.
Examples:
I'm so hungry I could eat a dozen eggs. (This is in the realm of the possible.)
I'm so hungry I could eat a horse. (Impossible.)
Unfortunately, no matter how hard I looked, I could not find anything that confirms that irony and/or humor is a necessary factor for identification in either one or in one but not the other.
So given that basic difference (and I'm sure I'm wrong), IMO, the universal negatives fall in the category of impossible. Never before, never again.
The verses may not contain irony, but then neither did my examples.
The verses may not contain humor, but not all hyperbole does.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 111 of 124 (640815)
11-13-2011 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by NoNukes
11-13-2011 11:31 AM


Re: Exaggeration vs hyperbole
Yes, I read that, (wish I could read the whole thing) but Bailey claims otherwise and doesn't and won't provide any support. That's all I could find on the possible difference between exaggeration and hyperbole.
As for eating a live frog, it falls in the realm of the possible and there are people who eat live frogs.
Whether it is an exaggeration or not would probably depend on the audience. Whether it is hyperbole or "just" exaggeration seems to depend on one's source for literary information.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 118 of 124 (647566)
01-10-2012 10:49 AM


How to Understand Literary Devices
Understanding literary devices requires using your imagination to seeing something from the perspective of the author. To understand literal language, imagination is not necessary; you can simply look up the dictionary definition. Literary devices, however, require your brain to do work -- to figure out connections and recognize patterns.
How to Understand Literary Devices
1. Study the definitions of major literary devices.
2-4. Basically practice creating literary devices and practice finding literary devices within literature.
Hyperbole
A hyperbole is a literary device wherein the author uses specific words and phrases that exaggerate and overemphasize the basic crux of the statement in order to produce a grander, more noticeable effect. The purpose of hyperbole is to create a larger-than-life effect and overly stress a specific point. Such sentences usually convey an action or sentiment that is generally not practically/ realistically possible or plausible but helps emphasize an emotion.
My position in this thread is that the Bible contains many literary devices and hyperbole is one of them. There **may** be instances where verses are presented as contradictions or inconsistencies that really **may** not be contradictions or inconsistencies due to unrecognized hyperbole.
From the OP: Many times we have examined the accuracy and inerrancy of Bible passages, but how many were simply exaggerations? Although I dislike apologetics, I would like to look at various passages considered **by some** to be contradictions or absolute statements and **see if** hyperbole comes into play.
While Matthew 23:24 has not been presented as contradicting anything, it is a good example of a hyperbole. The last sentence is an idiom.
You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
An idiom is an expression whose meaning is known only through common use. The meaning must be learned.
Metaphor refers to a specific type of literary device.
A metaphor is a literary figure of speech that uses an image, story or tangible thing to represent a less tangible thing or some intangible quality or idea; e.g., "Her eyes were glistening jewels."
and it can cover several literary devices.
Metaphor may also be used for any rhetorical figures of speech that achieve their effects via association, comparison or resemblance. In this broader sense, antithesis, hyperbole, metonymy and simile would all be considered types of metaphor.
Now we look at the sentence: You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
In the idiom the gnat is not being compared to the camel and therefore not a metaphor by the first definition. The gnat and camel are exaggerations of size. As a hyperbole it falls under the term metaphor by the second definition.
When using the word metaphor, one needs to be specific about the definition being used.
Now in 2 Kings, 18:5 and 23:25 are considered **by some** (I didn't say me) to be contradictions because mutually exclusive statements are made, so both statements cannot be true. Both kings cannot be like no other. (Although, I would say no one is ever exactly like anyone else.)
2 Kings 18:5 - Hezekiah trusted in the LORD, the God of Israel. There was no one like him among all the kings of Judah, either before him or after him.
2 Kings 23:25 - Neither before nor after Josiah was there a king like him who turned to the LORD as he did--with all his heart and with all his soul and with all his strength, in accordance with all the Law of Moses.
Never before and never again, but we see on the chart of Kings of Judah that before them King Asa did what was right in the eyes of the LORD and whose heart was fully committed to the LORD all his life. 1 Kings 15:11 & 14. We see other kings who did right also.
Now after Josiah there wasn't anyone who did right and then the kingdom ended, so no more kings; but there were good kings before him.
Not really sure why anyone would consider these to be contradictions since people are unique even when doing the same job. I still feel these verses are just saying these two were considered great kings even among those who were good kings.
Here is another instance considered to be an inconsistency by **some**. We see the use of absolutes again. All the Amalekites totally destroyed.
1 Samuel 15:8
He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword.
1 Samuel 27:8-9
Now David and his men went up and raided the Geshurites, the Girzites and the Amalekites. (From ancient times these peoples had lived in the land extending to Shur and Egypt.) Whenever David attacked an area, he did not leave a man or woman alive, but took sheep and cattle, donkeys and camels, and clothes.
1 Samuel 30:17
David fought them from dusk until the evening of the next day, and none of them got away, except four hundred young men who rode off on camels and fled.
For a group that had supposedly been totally destroyed, our characters aren't surprised that they keep showing up. The last instance they used an absolute with an exception.
Since the characters aren't surprised that the Amalekites are still around, I would say that hyperbole does come into play here for the first verse or they didn't take a good body count. In the second one, David could have been dealing with small villages.
Given the times, I don't really see an inconsistency with the stories.

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