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Author Topic:   Hyperbole in the Bible
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 37 of 124 (639922)
11-04-2011 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by NoNukes
11-04-2011 7:59 PM


Re: Why Hyperbole
quote:
I disagree that many of the examples you give from the Bible are clearly hyperbole.
Why do you feel they aren't clearly hyperbole?
People don't seem to have a problem recognizing hyperbole in writings classified as nonfiction, but apparently do in more creative works.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by NoNukes, posted 11-04-2011 7:59 PM NoNukes has replied

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 41 of 124 (639964)
11-05-2011 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by NoNukes
11-04-2011 11:47 PM


Re: Why Hyperbole
quote:
For the same reason that describing Superman as faster than a human bullet is not hyperbole. The authors intend for us to understand that Superman is able to travel at light speed.
The writer has set up the basis for the story. The Superman character is from another planet and it has already been provided in the story that he has different abilities on planet Earth.
The Noah story doesn't have such a setup. Now I can see why we have difficulty reading some Bible stories as we do other stories. The Noah story potentially had three authors over time. We may have lost the storytellers setup for the story.
quote:
I don't understand why I am required to disprove your proposition before you bother to establish it, but let me select one of your examples to beat on.
What is it with you people? I didn't require you to prove anything. You said you disagreed but did provide any reasoning for me to agree or disagree with. Am I supposed to guess which one you disagreed with and why? You guys seem to have some underlying issue you want me to address and I don't know what it is.
I provided my position in the OP
Many times we have examined the accuracy and inerrancy of Bible passages, but how many were simply exaggerations? Although I dislike apologetics, I would like to look at various passages considered by some to be contradictions or absolute statements and see if hyperbole comes into play.
and I've provided links and reasoning for why I feel the verses I shared could be hyperbole.
quote:
If the author understood Noah to have lived for 600 years and expects us to understand the same thing, then the author was speaking literally in exactly the same way Siegel and Shuster were speaking about Superman.
Not really a reasonable comparison. As I said earlier, the author provided a setup in the Superman story. Some authors prepare entire back stories for their characters even though those details don't make it into the story. This helps them stay true to the characters personality throughout the story and is helpful when there are many characters in a story. They want us to see the characters as real within the story. Unless the author sets up the basis for us to view a character as something different than what we know, we go with the norm.
I already conceded in Message 22 that the exaggerated ages, since they were probably added by the Redactor later, probably wouldn't be typical hyperbole. Noah's age doesn't really add anything to the story. The Redactor had his purpose, but it doesn't seem to be an exaggeration to impact the story.
quote:
Any way my point is that looking at the turn of phrase in isolation is not always enough. It is not hyperbole to say that Paul Bunyan created the grand canyon with his axe. It's just fiction. We are not to understand that Bunyan made a mere deep gash in the earth.
Why assume it was viewed in isolation?
As for Paul Bunyan, I can't address the actual sentence you're thinking of, but there is hyperbole in them tall tales also.
Hyperbole
Paul’s clothing was so large they had to use wagon
wheels for buttons.
IOW, he's a very big man. The tall tales got taller over time. The idea that Paul's dragging axe could create the Grand Canyon is another exaggeration of how big he was.
Flood stories can develop the same way. We don't know how long the stories were told orally before they were put to paper.
Jewish Legends
I have shown support that hyperbole can be used in fictional works and I've shown examples of hyperbole in fictional works. Deeming a work fiction does not negate hyperbole within the story.
Edited by purpledawn, : Added link

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by NoNukes, posted 11-05-2011 3:19 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 43 of 124 (639982)
11-05-2011 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by NoNukes
11-05-2011 3:19 PM


Re: Why Hyperbole
quote:
Why doesn't any the enumeration discussion in Gen:5 of Noah's ancestors living to be many hundreds of years old constitute setup? In my opinion it surely does.
There's nothing to tell us that we should view the humans in the story as different from ourselves, IMO. So the ages would be viewed as exaggerations, IMO.
quote:
Yes, and I agree that there can be hyperbole in fictional works. That doesn't mean that everything extra-ordinary thing in the Bible is a mere literary device. It's certainly no evidence that you are correctly identifying when literary devices are used.
And I didn't imply that it did. That's why I said in the OP: I would like to look at various passages considered by some to be contradictions or absolute statements and see if hyperbole comes into play. I haven't declared that all contradictions are absolutely hyperbole. I only listed a few to start the debate. We're looking for hyperbole in the Bible. We would have to actually look at verses in stories to determine what if any literary device is being used.
quote:
Wrong. Paul Bunyan was a fictional giant who people told whoppers about. Nobody was trying to describe a human being who was simply bigger than most people.
If you call the stories about Paul hyperbole, then your definition of the word is different than mine. Perhaps we can leave things at that.
The idea that there is hyperbole in the Paul Bunyan story is not deemed so on my authority. I provided links to support that conclusion and here is another.
Mrs. Dowling's Literature Terms
Hyperbole is common in tall tales. Here is an example:
At three weeks, Paul Bunyan got his family into a bit of trouble kicking around his little tootsies and knocking down something like four miles of standing timber.
Edited by purpledawn, : Fixed link

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 44 of 124 (639990)
11-06-2011 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by PaulK
11-05-2011 4:57 AM


Still Clueless
Since you feel that I still haven't addressed your point, I apparently still don't know what your point is. Sorry.
Edited by purpledawn, : Fixed typo

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 51 of 124 (640192)
11-07-2011 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Bailey
11-06-2011 2:52 PM


Re: Hyperbole's Impotence Regarding the Limitations of Excess
quote:
We can also recognize that - proportionately, the Yisraelites weren’t actually the size of ‘grasshoppers’ (although they apparently felt that way) - that's ridiculous, and so, hyperbole. The exaggeration exposes it because while the Nephilim were big boys, they weren’t quite that big; Paul and Babe, however, were. There appears to be another issue at work.
Yes, the grasshopper reference is a good hyperbole. As for Paul Bunyan, I provided links that deal with hyperbole in tall tales.
quote:
Anyway, hyperbole is exaggeration for effect.
I understand that hyperbole is exaggeration for effect or to make a point. As I've shown with links hyperbole can be obvious or subtle.
Genesis 6:5 is an exaggeration to make the point that those were bad times.
The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
We compare against our reality and all humans don't literally have evil thoughts 24/7. After the flood God still considered the humans who survived to still have the evil inclination. Mankind didn't change, and the Bible tells of righteous people.
quote:
I think we’re in a better position to understand hyperbole's relation to scripture, when we understand that often the original languages, as well as hyperbole are all exaggerative by their very natures. There needs to be a clear consensus to the constraints set forth in the narrative. I offer Matisyahu 23:24 as another clear and definable example of hyperbole.
Yes there is a lot of exaggeration in the language, that's why we have to be careful what we deem literal. We don't seem to have difficulty recognizing the ones with the obvious format.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Bailey, posted 11-06-2011 2:52 PM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Bailey, posted 11-09-2011 1:45 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 52 of 124 (640280)
11-08-2011 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Panda
11-06-2011 2:10 PM


Identifying Hyperbole
quote:
You appear to be saying that you can compare myths/fiction to reality and automatically know which bits can be identified as hyperbole because they don't match reality.
But the very definition of 'fiction' involves aspects of it not matching reality (and which are not hyperbole).
Hyperbole is a type of figurative language. This is a way to use words to enable the audience to create an image in their mind. To do this the storyteller has to keep to what his audience will understand. For an audience to understand an exaggeration, it has to be exaggerating the reality that they know.
We aren't comparing myths or fiction to reality. We are comparing the wording used in the sentence to convey the image to the audience, to reality. We have to look at what is written. Declaring a story to be myth or fiction does not mean there are no hyperbolic statements in the story.
We don't differentiate between myth and hyperbole. Myth is a classification and hyperbole is a literary device.
I have provided plenty of links in this thread supporting the various shades of hyperbole and that hyperbole can be found in many genres. I have yet to see any outside support for the mystifying statements of my opposition.
If you disagree that a verse I've shared is hyperbole, then explain why you feel it doesn't fit the bill and provide support for your conclusion. Don't pick Noah's age because I've already yielded on that one twice.

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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 59 of 124 (640443)
11-09-2011 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Bailey
11-09-2011 1:45 PM


Context
quote:
It’s been demonstrated context slowly instructs how seeming exaggerations may be revealed as neither excessive or hyperbole in context. If you disagree, simply show how context is irrelevant, or perhaps a hindrance, towards determining what may constitute as hyperbole in a given work.
Actually I don't feel that anyone has. The issue with Noah's age, which I yielded on, is an odd situation due to possibly being a later addition.
All I've been shown are examples of stories that contain hyperbole. These don't show me that what I've shared and not yielded on cannot be hyperbole.
God saw that the wickedness of mankind was great. How great was it? It was so great that their thoughts were evil 24/7.
What in the context deems Gensis 6:5 not to be hyperbole?

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 63 of 124 (640480)
11-10-2011 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by PaulK
11-10-2011 2:01 AM


Noah's Age Again
Since I've conceded on Noah's age, I am baffled as to why it is still an issue and we aren't moving forward.
My explanations for yielding are in Message 22 and Message 41. Neither said anything about Genesis 5. The ages are exaggerated when compared to reality. The exaggerated age doesn't seem to be written to stimulate a visual image in our mind's eye. The agees were probably more about filling a gap.
Yes, per Friedman, Genesis 5 was added by the Redactor.
Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by PaulK, posted 11-10-2011 2:01 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by PaulK, posted 11-10-2011 7:57 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 64 of 124 (640481)
11-10-2011 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Panda
11-08-2011 10:51 AM


Re: Identifying Hyperbole
Yes, I would consider Genesis 7:19 to be hyperbole.
All hills, whole heaven. It was a very bad flood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Panda, posted 11-08-2011 10:51 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 65 of 124 (640487)
11-10-2011 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
11-06-2011 7:10 PM


Re: Hyperbole's Impotence Regarding the Limitations of Excess
quote:
Is this really hyperbole? I'd suggest not. Certainly a literary device is in use, but nobody is really claiming that any animals are being eaten or swallowed. Instead the comparison between gnat and camel is supposed to indicate how badly the Pharisees and teachers of the law had missed the mark by concentrating on relative minutia. I'd suggest that we are looking at a metaphor rather than hyperbole.
Interesting that you don't consider Matthew 23:24 to be a hyperbole.
You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. Matthew 23:24
The camel and gnat are not being compared to each other. Straining out gnats or their larvae from one's drinking water was common. The camel is an exaggeration of what can be swallowed, let alone be found in one's water. Humor of the day.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 68 of 124 (640494)
11-10-2011 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by PaulK
11-10-2011 7:57 AM


Re: Noah's Age Again
Genesis 5 was not the basis for agreeing that Noah's exaggerated age might not be a true hyperbole as it is used in the story. His age doesn't make a point concerning the story.
As for the rainbow question, if you have a verse you feel I would consider to be hyperbole, please provide the verse.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 69 of 124 (640495)
11-10-2011 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Panda
11-10-2011 7:59 AM


Re: Identifying Hyperbole
As I said in Message 1, this thread is not about what Christianity teaches. It is about what the text says.
Since the flood didn't cover the planet, there were plenty of places for people to go. Notice the Nephilum were still around after the flood. Genesis 6:4.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 72 of 124 (640523)
11-10-2011 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Panda
11-10-2011 10:27 AM


Re: Identifying Hyperbole
quote:
So, how do we decide between your claim of hyperbole and other people's claim of accuracy?
What are you using to decide the Genesis quote is hyperbole, when others simply see a statement of fact?
Asked and answered. How do you determine hyperbole in any other book you read. It's your turn to explain.
If you want to argue the position that the verse is fact, then make your argument. I'm not going to debate against a position not presented by a participant.

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 78 of 124 (640562)
11-10-2011 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Panda
11-10-2011 12:30 PM


Re: Identifying Hyperbole
quote:
No, you have not answered this.
You can tell that you have not answered this by the number of people in this thread asking you to describe how you are deciding if things are hyperbole or not.
Message 52
We are comparing the wording used in the sentence to convey the image to the audience, to reality. We have to look at what is written.
People also look at examples of various types of hyperbole. This gives them a feel for what a hyperbole entails. I provided links with examples.
You provided a verse and I told you why I considered it hyperbole. Message 64. I stated in the OP that words like all, everything, and forever can signal hyperbole.
Your turn. How is hyperbole determined in any other book we read?
quote:
You are claiming that the verse is not fact, but when asked to explain your claim, you say "Prove it is fact!".
If your intention in this thread was to say "The following bible phrases are hyperbole. Prove me wrong!" then I think you are shifting the burden of proof to the wrong people.
I didn't ask you to prove anything. If you disagree with my position then, yes, the burden is on you to present and support your position. If you disagree that a verse is hyperbole, then you need to explain why it isn't and provide support. I have explained why I feel the verses I've shared are hyperbole and I've provided links. Just because you don't like my explanations or links doesn't mean I haven't explained or supported what I've said.
quote:
But you are the one who is meant to present a position.
And since you are reluctant to do so, I am finding it difficult to debate that position with you.
I presented my position in Message 1.
Many times we have examined the accuracy and inerrancy of Bible passages, but how many were simply exaggerations? Although I dislike apologetics, I would like to look at various passages considered by some to be contradictions or absolute statements and see if hyperbole comes into play.
Then I've shared verses I consider to contain hyperbole. So my position concerning the verses I share is that they contain hyperbole. I don't share verses I don't feel contain hyperbole. Again that means my position concerning the verses I share is that they contain hyperbole.
If someone disagrees with me and feels that the verses I shared are fact, that means their position is that the verse does not contain hyperbole. My position is that the verse contains hyperbole. I only need to provide support and reasoned argumentation for my position concerning the verses I share. Now you know, my position concerning the verses I share is that they contain hyperbole. Those who consider it fact will have to provide their own support and reasoned argumentation since my position is that the verses I've shared contain hyperbole.
One last time: My position concerning the verses I share is that they contain hyperbole.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Panda, posted 11-10-2011 12:30 PM Panda has replied

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 Message 79 by Panda, posted 11-10-2011 6:35 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 81 of 124 (640592)
11-10-2011 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Panda
11-10-2011 6:35 PM


Great Kings
quote:
PurpleDawn writes:
I would like to look at various passages considered by some to be contradictions or absolute statements and see if hyperbole comes into play.
Your argument is: the bible contains hyperbole and the bible shouldn't contain contradictions therefore any contradictions are probably hyperbole.
Sorry, that is not my argument.
quote:
The fact that people use similar exaggerations does not mean that these verses are exaggerations.
The fact that you said that doesn't mean they aren't either.
Both verses use a universal negative. Basically, never before and never again. Absolutes tend to be exaggerations. (No, I didn't say that all absolutes are exaggerations.) IMO, the audience would understand it as a compliment.
So what is your support that they should be read literally and be considered contradictions?
Really if you do understand them literally, they still aren't contradictions because each individual is unique. Each king is going to have his own style and foibles.
quote:
If you do not have anything solid to support your claim that those particular verses aren't simply contradictions then there is nothing to discuss.
All you are doing is stating a subjective opinion.
That was just the opening post. What did you expect, a dissertaion?
How is hyperbole determined in any other book we read?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Panda, posted 11-10-2011 6:35 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
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