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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Occupy Wall Street

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jar
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 460 of 602 (639545)
11-01-2011 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 451 by Rahvin
11-01-2011 1:12 PM


Re: Parlimentary system
No, it is not a trick question and yes, the replacements would likely be very much like what is there now.
The problem is the electorate.
Our Representatives simply reflect the voters.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Rahvin, posted 11-01-2011 1:12 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 461 of 602 (639547)
11-01-2011 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by crashfrog
11-01-2011 1:14 PM


Re: Parlimentary system
I'm sorry but sometimes the bullshit you post is simply too funny for words but I'll admit I do get a hearty laugh from your contributions.
quote:
It's always been the purpose of the Senate to pervert the notion of democracy.
Too funny.
The founding fathers were of course terrified, and rightly so, of the idea of a Democracy, which is why they created the limits they did on government.
Yes, the Senate was meant as one way of preventing the possibility of a pure Democracy.
And yes, the idea of "one man one vote" would have seemed crazy to them.
And in case you have missed it, I have mentioned several times in this thread that Amending the current Constitution is one method of change.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2011 1:14 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 464 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2011 5:48 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 467 of 602 (639553)
11-01-2011 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by Rahvin
11-01-2011 5:52 PM


voting systems
There are several other ways that voting itself could be managed, for example by allowing weighted voting, where each voter is given a set number of votes that could be spread over one or multiple candidates; or where the voter selects a first, second and third choice for an office which is then totaled.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by Rahvin, posted 11-01-2011 5:52 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-01-2011 9:27 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 471 of 602 (639562)
11-01-2011 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Dr Adequate
11-01-2011 9:27 PM


Re: voting systems
In the first example, the voter could spread his votes over one or more candidates, for example if the voter felt really strongly about one candidate he could give all 5 (or what ever number) for one person or one each for five people or two for one person and three for a second.
Votes for a candidate would get totaled individually.
In the later system, totally is done on a weighted scale, a candidate would get 3 points for a first choice vote, 2 points for each second choice vote and 1 point for each third choice vote.
When there are two (or more) very strong candidates they would tend to cancel each other out but a candidate who ranks high as a second or third choice across the board would score well.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-01-2011 9:27 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2011 10:47 PM jar has replied
 Message 475 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-02-2011 12:03 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 474 of 602 (639565)
11-01-2011 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by crashfrog
11-01-2011 10:47 PM


Re: voting systems
To you, probably not.
But it would open the way for multiple parties and increase the chance of changing representation.
But the basic problem is still an uneducated electorate and as I have said, that cannot be solved quickly.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2011 10:47 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 484 by crashfrog, posted 11-02-2011 10:29 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 480 of 602 (639588)
11-02-2011 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 475 by Dr Adequate
11-02-2011 12:03 AM


Re: voting systems
Dr Adequate writes:
Under this system, I can't think of any circumstances under which it would not be rational to give all five points to some particular candidate.
Yes, and I imagine that with the uneducated electorate in the US that many would think just like you.
Dr Adequate writes:
Under which system it's better to be everybody's second choice than to be the first choice of 65%. A middle-of the road candidate who no-one really wants could therefore beat out someone more radical, one way or the other, who under FPTP would be acclaimed as winning a landslide victory. Is that what you intend?
Except the more radical candidate is far more likely to be a second or third choice than the middle of the road candidate.
The issue as I have mentioned before is the electorate.
We have voters in the US today that vote as though they were under a Parliamentary system, they just pull the vote red or vote blue lever. We have voters that vote based on campaign ads. Mostly though, we have citizens that do not vote.
My hope is that changing things which can be done without modification of the Constitution might, and I stress might, lead to a multi party state.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-02-2011 12:03 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-02-2011 10:01 AM jar has replied
 Message 485 by crashfrog, posted 11-02-2011 10:43 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 481 of 602 (639590)
11-02-2011 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 478 by Dogmafood
11-02-2011 9:14 AM


Re: Democracy
Actually, other than is small groups where it is possible to build consensus I don't think pure democracy has been tried. The French for awhile right after the Revolution came close and the Soviet Union before Stalin also came close; I'm sure there are other examples but can't think of any off the top of my head.
Most laws that protect rights are not really passed as a sign of the will of the people. For example, the Civil Rights movement was very unpopular and had it been subject to direct vote, it would never have happened.
No, I do not believe that our politicians are saving us from ourselves, in fact I think I have mentioned several times in this thread that our politicians simply reflect the electorate.
In the US today we can see that in action where there is a very popular movement to remove almost all the protections that have been gained during the last half century.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by Dogmafood, posted 11-02-2011 9:14 AM Dogmafood has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 486 by dronestar, posted 11-02-2011 11:16 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 483 of 602 (639597)
11-02-2011 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 482 by Dr Adequate
11-02-2011 10:01 AM


Re: voting systems
Dr Adequate writes:
Well, provide me with a counter-example. Suppose that I have a personal ranking for my candidates. Suppose that I either do, or do not, have some idea what the rest of the electorate thinks. Under what circumstances would it be rational for me to split my five votes between more than one candidate?
It should be irrelevant what the rest of the electorate thinks when determining your vote, but in today's media driven system that seems unlikely.
If you actually do have a personal ranking of the candidates then I would think that the rational way to vote would be to reflect that ranking.
Dr Adequate writes:
But in that case he'd be the second choice of some middle-of-the-roaders, the ones who are closer to him than the other extreme. We're not going to get a situation where (for example) some people prefer the right-winger, some people prefer the centrist, but everyone has the lefty as their second choice, are we?
I don't know. I do think that a big part of the problem though is that there are "righties and lefties".

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-02-2011 10:01 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 491 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-02-2011 12:17 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 487 of 602 (639613)
11-02-2011 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 486 by dronestar
11-02-2011 11:16 AM


Re: Democracy
The politicians were all elected were they not?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by dronestar, posted 11-02-2011 11:16 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 488 by dronestar, posted 11-02-2011 11:57 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 490 of 602 (639618)
11-02-2011 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 488 by dronestar
11-02-2011 11:57 AM


Re: Democracy
But remember, the electorate enabled those problems to return; it was the electorate that supported media consolidation, removed the Fairness Doctrine, allowed the appointment of Supreme Court Justices that decided to allow "Corporate Citizens Political Support", defund Public Radio and Television and many other safeguards.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by dronestar, posted 11-02-2011 11:57 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 493 by dronestar, posted 11-02-2011 12:28 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 492 of 602 (639621)
11-02-2011 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 491 by Dr Adequate
11-02-2011 12:17 PM


Re: voting systems
Again, it's really fun making up examples, isn't it.
But the idea of developing a consensus is finding what everyone can live with.
The ideal system would include an absolute veto vote as well, where if anyone said I simply cannot live with candidate X being elected, then that person could not be elected.
The goal of what I propose is to move away from majority rule towards consensus.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 491 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-02-2011 12:17 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 499 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-02-2011 1:34 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 495 of 602 (639625)
11-02-2011 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 493 by dronestar
11-02-2011 12:28 PM


Re: Both sides of the fence?
Again, that simply reflects the education and thinking tools of the electorate. The electorate includes even those who choose not to vote. Those who chose that path enabled those who voted to elect representatives that removed those safeguards.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 493 by dronestar, posted 11-02-2011 12:28 PM dronestar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 504 of 602 (639637)
11-02-2011 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 499 by Dr Adequate
11-02-2011 1:34 PM


Re: voting systems
Yes, eventually someone would get elected.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-02-2011 1:34 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 506 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-02-2011 2:33 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 508 of 602 (639641)
11-02-2011 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 506 by Dr Adequate
11-02-2011 2:33 PM


Re: voting systems
No, read what I write; one person that everyone can live with. Consensus does not require that the person be a favorite, or even desirable, simply that it is someone who everyone can live with.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-02-2011 2:33 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 512 by crashfrog, posted 11-02-2011 2:52 PM jar has seen this message but not replied
 Message 513 by crashfrog, posted 11-02-2011 2:57 PM jar has seen this message but not replied
 Message 514 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-02-2011 3:30 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 515 of 602 (639649)
11-02-2011 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by Dr Adequate
11-02-2011 3:30 PM


Re: voting systems
Yes, one person could veto all the other votes.
Building consensus works that way, it is not free from tension, free from conflict, is often messy and almost always very slow.
In the ideal system that one veto stops the process and it is halted until a solution can be found that the person holding the veto finally says "I can live with that".

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-02-2011 3:30 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 516 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-02-2011 3:44 PM jar has replied
 Message 517 by crashfrog, posted 11-02-2011 3:46 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
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