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Author Topic:   Studying the supernatural
Straggler
Member (Idle past 318 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 179 of 207 (637064)
10-13-2011 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Chuck77
10-13-2011 6:43 AM


Firstly who says we can't test for the supernatural? Mod for one has explained in various places how he would test various supernatural claims.
Secondly - Haven't we been through all this with the whole 'Hogwarts Hypothesis' thing? That something cannot be tested is not a barrier in and of itself for rejecting it.
Thirdly - The idea that the more natural explanations replace supernatural ones the more legitimate supernatural beliefs are is just pointlessly perverse to the point of ridiculous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Chuck77, posted 10-13-2011 6:43 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Chuck77, posted 10-14-2011 5:07 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 318 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 184 of 207 (637259)
10-14-2011 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Chuck77
10-14-2011 5:07 AM


Do you understand that testing involves more than simply attributing the object of your belief as the cause of whatever you believe it to have been involved in?
Chuck writes:
Which should we start the testing at? I already said my shoulder was healed and you dismissed it because what, you weren't there to see it?
It has nothing to do with me being there to personally witness your belief based thinking.
Chuck writes:
Or prayer, was that one we could test? I think then, we need to test everyones understanding of prayer to see if it lines up with what God says. We have to pray His will for our prayer to be answered. His will is to heal us.
You have been told by me and others how prayer can be tested using double blind trials.
Chuck writes:
Test: Successful. I was healed. You ok with this test of ours so far?
No. See above.
Straggler writes:
Secondly - Haven't we been through all this with the whole 'Hogwarts Hypothesis' thing? That something cannot be tested is not a barrier in and of itself for rejecting it.
Chuck writes:
Yes. What's the problem? Then you're onboard that God created lightning? Or atleast it's a viable hypothesis?
If by "God" you simply mean a series of predictable meteorological phenomenon - Then aside from pointing out the misnomer - Yes I would agree. If you mean something else by "God" you need to explain what exactly it is you are talking about.
What are you talking about?
Chuck writes:
So, you claim steak to things explained and NOW it seems to things UNEXPLIANED as well? What's left for everyone else?
Huh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Chuck77, posted 10-14-2011 5:07 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Chuck77, posted 10-15-2011 7:46 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 318 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 187 of 207 (637396)
10-15-2011 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Chuck77
10-15-2011 7:46 AM


The Templeton Foundation (a pro-theistic organisation) did a blue ribbon standard, peer reviewed study into the efficacy of prayer after a number of previous studies in the field were accused of methodological weaknesses. The results of this study were negative. Templeton Foundation Post Research Press Release and Associated Links
Chuck writes:
Science deals with the natural and CANNOT rule out the influence from the SN no matter how they or you spin it.
I suggest you go back and read Mod's opening post.
Mod in the OP writes:
The thing is, science investigates what can detected. It doesn't care whether the thing being detected is metaphysically natural or metaphysically supernatural. Science is a methodology for investigations.
So can you explain why exactly you think we cannot scientifically investigate supernatural claims?
Chuck writes:
When something IS explained science claims it as explained therefore natural causes, the whole nine yards. Saying nothing about it's origins or how it even originated or came into existance.
Chuck writes:
Without a means to test for the supernatural how can the supernatural be refuted or dismissed simply by explaining how some natural phenomena work?
Once we figure out how lightning works it has nothing to do with whether Thor is the one throwing those boltz or not. It only explains what happens after Thor lets go of the bolt.
Because there are scientific explanations to something only shows IMO that God (or Thor) designed it to work that way.
Given that we know the cause of thunder and are even able to predict where and when it will occur with some accuracy are you really saying that Thor cannot be discounted?
Really?
Wiki on thunderstorms writes:
Thunderstorms had a lasting and powerful influence on early civilizations. Greeks thought them to be battles waged by Zeus, who hurled lightning bolts forged by Hephaestus. Thunderstorms were associated with the Thunderbirds, held by Native Americans to be a servant of the Great Spirit.[90] The Norse considered thunderstorms to occur when Thor went to beat on Jtnar, with the thunder and lightning being the effect of his strikes with the hammer Mjlnir. Christian doctrine accepted the ideas of Aristotle's original work, called Meteorologica, that winds were caused by exhalations from the Earth and that fierce storms were the work of God. These ideas were still within the mainstream as late as the 18th century.
Link
Get with the times Chuck. That's my advice.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Chuck77, posted 10-15-2011 7:46 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Chuck77, posted 10-22-2011 3:41 AM Straggler has not replied
 Message 206 by Rrhain, posted 10-22-2011 7:19 PM Straggler has not replied

  
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