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Author Topic:   The Hebrew Bible
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4422 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


(1)
Message 1 of 10 (630919)
08-29-2011 10:31 AM


Great Debate challenge to IamJoseph
In many threads IamJoseph has made a series of claims regarding the Hebrew Bible. The comments are never on topic for the thread he is on and when I call him on it, we derail the thread.
I have challenged IamJoseph to start a thread of his own in order to put his claims up for debate, he has refused.
I have tried to start threads related to his claims in open forums but have been denied.
I have challenged IamJoseph in various threads but in the end get in trouble for derailing threads.
It has got to the stage that if I challenge IamJoseph on his unsubstantiated claims when he brings them up in a random off topic thread, I will be suspended for a week.
My only option it appears is to challenge IamJoseph to a great debate.
I will do the best I can stating IamJosephs claims. I did not make the claims so there will propably be errors. I will quote as much as possible.
What I request from IamJoseph is clarifications of the claims and evidence supporting his claims.
I am not sure that I will be refuting all of the claims. I would like IamJoseph to support some of his claims with evidence so that I can use them if needed in future and be comfortable knowing that they are actually facts. At present, it is not possible to use his claims as they have not been verified or supported with any evidence. I am only too happy to be educated. I need evidence to be educated, not unsupported claims.
I have included the claims and some conversation we have had already.
The claims used in this thread come from Message 208
The same claims have been made in many other threads also.
The Hebrew bible marks the first recording of a host of factors and is unique:
1. The universe is finite.
2. The first listing of life form groups [species]
3. The intoruction of the DAY & WEEK.
4. The oldest active calendar [5770]
5. The first recording of a host of historical items [Mount Ararat, the Tigris, Goshen, Mount Nebo], and ancient nations [Midianites, Moabites, Philistines]; the first kings [Nimrod, Ramseys], the first alphabetical book, the first cencus[sic], the only source for the history of Abraham and Israel.
From this quote, I will rephrase the individual statements and request that IamJoseph confirm them.
1. We will need to establish an agreed upon time for the first Hebrew Bible. We began to discuss this.
my comment - You will need to provide the earliest recording of the Hebrew Bible that includes the statement you are discussing.
your reply - We don't have copies of the Septuagint to its contemporary date [no thanks to Europe!], but we have cross-nation proof this was done in 300 BCE by the Greeks. The dead sea scrolls is dated as upto 250 BCE, but this not mean the bible was created on this date. I would say it was created as per the writings by Moses 3,500 years ago: we have an Egyptian stelle dated 3,500 which affirms parts of the biblical story. Writings was a very expensive and time consuming work in those times, but we know Hebrew writings existed becase we now have proof of King David [The Tel Dan find], and he wrote the psalms 3000 years ago. The original would have been destroyed in the Babylon destruction.
from Message 212
You mentioned that you are accepting the dead sea scrolls. In some discussions regarding this matter you have been very specific about accepting BOOKS only. These are scrolls. The hint is in the title. This is fine though. The Dead sea scrolls are the first I am aware of also. You have given a number of different dates. The earliest date I have found for the Dead Sea Scrolls is an approximate 250BCE (source : Home - Dead Sea Scrolls Foundation) This is the earliest (partial) copy of this text ever found. You mention a date of 3500 ago according to Moses. If you can provide the document with a link so I can have a look, I will be happy to concede this. However, from the way you phrased it, you wont be able to do this. You have to provide the document. You have said the first recording. So you will have to actually provide the first recording. 250BCE to 65 AD is the age from my source. And it is not all of the Old Testement. The next oldest is fragments, 800-1000 ACE, the oldest complete copy is the Leningrad Codex from 1008AD (same source). Will you accept 250BCE as the oldest known copy of the Old Testement in existence? That will give me a confirmed date to work from.
2. The Hebrew Bible is Unique in its claims. I am not sure what IamJoseph means by this. It could be that the Hebrew Bible is unique in making these claims. If the Hebrew Bible was first at something, then it would be unique at that time. It will stop being unique until someone else makes the same statements. I will need IamJoseph to clarify this statement.
3. The Hebrew Bible is the first recording of the claim that the universe being finite.
IamJoseph additional information - Genesis opening verse; first 3 words: IN THE BEGINNING. The entire verse is open to no other reading than the heavens and the earth [universe] had a beginning. This is my reference.
from Message 212
Ok, Good reference, I can find the chapter and verse too. The key phrase is 'In the beginning'. So any religious document I can find that discusses a beginning is acceptable. There is the issue that we dont currently know that the universe is actually finite. The only way we could scientifically prove this, is to find its edge. Your interpretation that 'In the Beginning' means the universe is finite can also be challenged. It only means that it began. God, being all powerful and capable of anything is certainly capable of creating an infinite universe. But that does not matter. It is not the interpretation I am trying to argue. But you could think on these things to strengthen your arguement for future debates. To refute the claim, I need to find a text dated prior to 250BCE that mentions a beginning in its creation narrative.
4. The Hebrew Bible is the first listing of life form groups [species]
IamJoseph additional info - Its only the most known writings on earth: Ch1/V9-31. The seperation is by terrain and habitat - the most fundamental ones.
from Message 212
Ok, so it does not actually mention species. And it does not match the definition of species. It is a grouping into kinds. This is fair enough. So, to refute this, I need to find a recording, prior to 250BCE, of animals being grouped in some manner. Any manner. The 'kinds' grouping system (airborne, waterborne etc) do not match current scientific groupings of animals so I need not provide an accurate grouping method.
5. The Hebrew Bible was the first recording of the separation of time into days and weeks.
IamJoseph additional info - These are the first recording of day and week: And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
Duet 16/9 Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee; from the time the sickle is first put to the standing corn shalt thou begin to number seven weeks.
from Message 212
Ok, so to refute this claim, I need to provide any reference, dated prior to 250BCE, to evenings, mornings or single days (breaks in time), weeks of days.
6. The Hebrew calendar is the oldest active calendar [5770]
IamJoseph additional info - It begins after the 6 creation days. The first Saturday occured 5750 years ago, and all events since then are diarised, as seen in any Hebrew newspaper. This is the oldest active calendar and the most accurate one
from Message 212
I will need you to produce evidence of the calendar that began in 3759BCE. From what you have written, you are using the Bible as a source to prove itself. This is not good enough unfortunately. Any writer can write something and backdate it 2000 years. I could write a calendar right now and backdate it 250 000 years. This does not mean that my calendar is the first calendar in existence. You will need to actually provide non biblical evidence of your claim. This statement comes in two parts, the oldest active calendar and the most accurate calendar.
In order to refute this claim, I need to find a calendar that is confirmed to date prior to 250BCE. I will see if I can find one that is also still in use somewhere and is as accurate. I will check the accuracy of the Jewish calendar also.
We had a bit of a chat about the mentioning of the geological formations. It will probably be too difficult or irrelevant to discuss them further. I will move on to the next claim.
7. The Hebrew Bible contains the first recorded census.
I have asked for clarification of what you mean and received this reply.
Look for it!
from Message 212
Hmmmm. Thats not really how it works. If I dont know exactly what you are talking about, it is difficult for me to research your claim for you to verify or refute it dont you think?
How about I try it this way -
The definition of census - An official count or survey of a population, typically recording various details of individuals.
So, to refute you claim, I need to find an official count or survey of people confirmed dated prior to 250BCE. Hows that?
8. The Hebrew Bible is the first alphabetical book.
In order to refute this, I will you to confirm what your definition of alphabetical book is and supply your date (with supporting evidence) of the oldest known copy of the Hebrew Bible.
9. The Hebrew Bible is "the only source for the history of Abraham and Israel".
I can refute this one straight away. Lots of books discuss the history of Abraham and Israel. Grab any encyclopedia. Or try googling "the history of abraham and Israel". You will be given many, many sources. Here is one source for the history of Abraham and Israel : The Story of Abraham. This proves that the Hebrew Bible is NOT the only source for the History of Abraham and the Bible.
Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.
Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.
Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-30-2011 3:34 AM Butterflytyrant has not replied
 Message 3 by AdminPD, posted 08-30-2011 7:30 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4422 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 2 of 10 (631043)
08-30-2011 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Butterflytyrant
08-29-2011 10:31 AM


bump

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-29-2011 10:31 AM Butterflytyrant has not replied

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 3 of 10 (631070)
08-30-2011 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Butterflytyrant
08-29-2011 10:31 AM


Invitation Will be Sent
I will send an invitation to IAJ and in the mean time, please correct any misspelled words (census) and provide a link to all the quotes. You provided one, but not for the remaining ones.
Thanks
AdminPD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-29-2011 10:31 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-30-2011 8:45 AM AdminPD has replied

Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4422 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 4 of 10 (631073)
08-30-2011 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by AdminPD
08-30-2011 7:30 AM


Re: Invitation Will be Sent
links provided to quotes.
Spelling corrected, [sic] added to errors in quotes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by AdminPD, posted 08-30-2011 7:30 AM AdminPD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by AdminPD, posted 09-23-2011 7:04 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 5 of 10 (634624)
09-23-2011 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Butterflytyrant
08-30-2011 8:45 AM


Invitation Refused
Hey BFT,
I finally received a response from IAJ and he refused your invitation to a Great Debate on the subject presented.
Thanks
AdminPD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-30-2011 8:45 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-23-2011 9:33 AM AdminPD has replied

Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4422 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 6 of 10 (634654)
09-23-2011 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by AdminPD
09-23-2011 7:04 AM


Re: Invitation Refused
Hello Purple Dawn
Pity, but not unexpected.
Cheers,
BT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by AdminPD, posted 09-23-2011 7:04 AM AdminPD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by AdminPD, posted 09-24-2011 5:05 PM Butterflytyrant has replied

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 7 of 10 (634903)
09-24-2011 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Butterflytyrant
09-23-2011 9:33 AM


Re: Invitation Refused
IAJ has changed his mind and wishes the Great Debate.
Are you still up for it?
Thanks
AdminPD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-23-2011 9:33 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-24-2011 9:48 PM AdminPD has not replied

Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4422 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 8 of 10 (634928)
09-24-2011 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by AdminPD
09-24-2011 5:05 PM


Re: Invitation Refused
Hello Purple Dawn,
Yes, I am still interested.
He will first need to check out the first post to make sure all of the claims and details are correct and we can begin.
Cheers,
BT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by AdminPD, posted 09-24-2011 5:05 PM AdminPD has not replied

Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4422 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 9 of 10 (634945)
09-25-2011 12:52 AM


Information required from IamJoseph
I have been doing a bit of reading and I have come up with a bit of hiccup.
The Genesis creation story does not appear in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
So the date for the first recording of "In the beginning" is not from 250BCE.
What IamJoseph will need to do is provide a source that can be verified for the earliest recording of each one of his claims.
If he does have a source showing the words "In the beginning" in the Dead Sea scrolls I have no problem accepting it.
He needs to provide a verifiable source for the first recording of the claims he has made.
Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.

I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong
Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot
"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 10 of 10 (635096)
09-26-2011 3:06 PM


Thread Moved to Great Debate
Thread copied to the The Hebrew Bible (Butterflytyrant and IamJoseph Only)(Butterflytyrant and IamJoseph Only)[/color] thread in the The Great Debate forum.
This copy of the thread has been closed.

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