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Author Topic:   Subjective Evidence of Gods
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 419 of 468 (631499)
09-01-2011 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by Chuck77
09-01-2011 3:51 AM


Re: Being dishonest
Chuck writes:
I said CHRISTIANS who converted to Islam. Jesus professing Christians who have converted to Islam.
Have you tried just doing the obvious thing of typing something like 'christian convert Islam' into Google?
I did this and got the following sort of thing: Islamic Converts
Link writes:
Below a collection of converts' stories which are enlightening, heart-warming and inspiring in equal measure. These new Muslims come from a variety of backgrounds. They include intellectuals, scientists, priests, Rabbis, missionaries, and artists, young and old, famous and laypersons, from around the globe. Most of these converts are former Christians or from a Christian background. These testimonies only represent a drop in the ocean however, since every day hundreds of people convert to Islam all around the world. Amongst the most powerful and thought-provoking testimonies are those of former Christian priests and missionaries who have discovered the one true religion. This is a tremendous challenge to Christian missionaries.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by Chuck77, posted 09-01-2011 3:51 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-01-2011 6:54 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 425 by Chuck77, posted 09-02-2011 4:26 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 442 of 468 (632238)
09-06-2011 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by Chuck77
09-02-2011 4:26 AM


Re: subjective evidence overload
Chuck writes:
I know! Isn't it great. Talk about overload of subjective evidence.
What subjective evidence of what? That people are converting from one religion to another is objectively evidenced isn't it? The question is why you think this matters?
Chuck writes:
Although there are MANY more muslims converting to christianity than the other way around I think it says something regardless don't you?
Is that actually true?
And if it is true what does it say other than one religion is more appealing than another? I hear Scientology is the worlds fastest growing religion. What does that tell us?
It is just a case of the argumentum ad populum fallacy to claim that being the largest, fastest growing or most converted to religion has any logical consequences about the truth of that religion.
So I am not sure what your point is with this Islam/Christian stuff......?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by Chuck77, posted 09-02-2011 4:26 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by Chuck77, posted 09-10-2011 3:22 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 443 of 468 (632240)
09-06-2011 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by Dawn Bertot
09-01-2011 6:54 PM


Re: Being dishonest
DB writes:
Really Straggler, lets see this list, with the confessionals on the ocean of people that have converted. Perhaps like many things this is greatly exaggerated. Would you happen to have the visual evidence that supports this claim.
You didn't read the link did you? It was full of examples.
Frankly I am bewildered why you and Chuck place so much emphasis on who is converting from what to what. Why does it matter? But the silly idea that there aren't Christians converting to other religions is patently false.
Here is one of the numerous testimonies from the link previously provided.
Previoulsy given link writes:
I was interested in religion and excelled in the study of languages and accepted a full scholarship to a university in Cameroon after graduating from high school. Again, as the only female, I enrolled in the College of Theology. I wasn’t sure where I would go with it, but after a short while, the administration applied for a scholarship in the same College of Theology, but in Belgium. There I would learn how to be a Pastor in the Roman Catholic Church. My language ability aided me quite a bit and my mastery of some of the African dialects attracted them as a good candidate for missionary work.
As the years went by, I began to see through the layers of theology and found the superficiality of their teachings. I was not alone in seeing the many contradictions in the New and Old Testaments. To learn that the ‘Trinity’ is mentioned only once in the New Testament was a surprise but when I learned it had been fully established at the Council of Nicea and that it was not part of what Jesus taught, something in my mind clicked.
We were shown certain books called the Gnostic Books, which we were told were hidden teachings, I understood that the church was being deceitful and this was disturbing. How could I believe that this was, as they said, the word of God from A to Z. "The People of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the Truth which they themselves know. The Truth is from thy Lord, so be not in doubt." (Qur’an 2:146-147)
Still I pursued my studies in an effort to be able to help myself and my people some day. "As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou has no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did." (Qur’an 6:159)
After graduation from University, I took a position in Nairobi, Kenya. The Church was very anxious to have an African in a position such as this. They had many programmes for women and I was a coordinator for these programmes under the auspices of the World Council of Churches. I handled different aspects of exhibitions, women’s projects, donors, workshops and conferences.
I was sent to the regional office in Togo because they are mainly French-speaking which I spoke fluently and the type of projects I knew how to handle were being implemented there. I began to search for the spiritual force that was missing in my life and in Togo I searched through all the practiced religions. When one looks for truth there are many things thrown in one’s path.
This part of Africa has many people who practice witchcraft and who claim to have knowledge of the unseen and it was obvious they were just taking people’s money. There is no one with knowledge of the unseen except God.
I had been facing much mediocrity from the Church and at the same time I had Muslim friends who were very comfortable in their knowledge of God, who prayed five times daily and who had many virtues. They believed in what they said, in contrast to the Church where you repeat what you have been taught without believing in it.
I had never been taught anything about Islam except a superficial introduction so I did a lot of reading about the religion.
I cannot say that to convert to Islam was easy; it was very difficult. But when one is searching for the truth there is no way to deny it.
The decision was also difficult for economic reasons as I had one of the highest paying professions with many perks.
I resigned from my position citing my conversion as my reason and immediately lost my job and salary, housing and medical benefits. I became destitute in one day! My family does not like my hijab but they admire the moral aspects of Islam. I helped to raise my brothers and sisters and they are much younger than I, and now to see how much they hate me is almost unbearable.
They felt the economic hardship immediately as I did, and cannot understand why I would do such a thing. But with the grace of Allah they too will find the truth of Islam, Insha’allah. I hope and pray that I can use the knowledge that the education in the Church gave me towards the propagation of Islam. The spiritual climate of West Africa is ripe for Islam and there are many projects which need doing. This is what I have been trained to do and so my path is straight and narrow for me now.
But my question to you is - Why does it matter who is converting from what to what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-01-2011 6:54 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 452 of 468 (632831)
09-10-2011 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by RAZD
09-10-2011 9:37 AM


Re: Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
Firstly - Are you actually agreeing with Chuck that it is somehow indicative of the truth of one religion over another as to which one has the more converts?
Secondly - With regard to the rest of your post about me personally......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by RAZD, posted 09-10-2011 9:37 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 453 of 468 (632835)
09-10-2011 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by Chuck77
09-10-2011 3:22 AM


Re: Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
Straggler writes:
The question is why you think this matters?
Chuck writes:
Dude, the question isn't why ME thinks this matters it's why THEY think it matters.
YOU obviously do think it matters who is converting from what to what otherwise YOU wouldn't have raised it as an issue would YOU?
So explain to me - Why does it matter? Do you think it is indicative of the truth of one religion over another?
Chuck writes:
I said more muslims are converting to Christinaity than Christians are converting to Islam. How many times do you need this repeated? Apperantly many many times. Can you ever admit anything is true????? You are frikking impossible dude, your like a dam woman you know that?
Before I head off to do my hair and make-up can you tell us all where you are getting this information from?
Chuck writes:
It would seem whatever subjective evidence they are coming across, favors Christianity.
I am sure Islamists all over the world are finding the face of Jesus in their toasted cheese sandwiches very compelling.......
Link
Or does this not qualify as subjective evidence.......?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Chuck77, posted 09-10-2011 3:22 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by Chuck77, posted 09-11-2011 2:46 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 454 of 468 (632837)
09-10-2011 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by Chuck77
09-10-2011 6:52 AM


Re: Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
Chuck writes:
Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
At last!! Someone who actually appreciates my talents!! Well done for your own highly perceptive viewpoint. And let me point out - No subjective evidence needed to come to that conclusion!
Case closed on subjective evidence then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by Chuck77, posted 09-10-2011 6:52 AM Chuck77 has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 455 of 468 (632839)
09-10-2011 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by RAZD
09-10-2011 9:37 AM


Re: Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
RAZ back in the days when you were still sane you said the following:
RAZD writes:
There likely is also cognitive dissonance: tell a believer that it looks like something else, and they'll probably deny it (like John 10:10 saying that you need to look with faith to see the evidence that justifies faith). So we should start believing because of the evidence before our eyes, evidence that you need faith to see, but evidence you will see once you have faith. So pass the mochi and believe in the Great Rabbit.
Message 14 in Underpass stains, burnt toast & the pervasiveness of the Cult of the Virgin Mary
Doesn't this apply to ALL subjective "evidence".....?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by RAZD, posted 09-10-2011 9:37 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by RAZD, posted 09-10-2011 7:37 PM Straggler has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 466 of 468 (633112)
09-12-2011 2:21 PM


Summary
The "subjective evidence" put forwards for gods in this thread seems to consist of a combination of 3 different arguments. All of them flawed.
1) We have had a few variations of argumentum ad populum. Essentially anything which relies on human belief itself as evidence upon which to justify human belief is circular. Obviously.
2) Confusing cause and effect - Essentially taking an observable phenomenon and instead of asking what the cause of this phenomenon is the theist assumes that the object of their belief is the cause and then cites the observed phenomenon as evidence of their belief. It is completely back to front and lies at the heart of the whole "religious experience" form of evidence. Aside from human belief what is there to link these experiences to anything supernatural at all?
3) Lastly we have the "All conclusions are just different interpretations of the same evidence" approach. Here the fact of the human proclivity to falsely imbue all sorts of things with intelligent agency and to invent intelligent agents is accepted. But in a slightly perverse form of reverse logic the fact that humans have a tendency to invoke false positive agency (i.e. agency that is perceived but isn't actually there as a result of the survival advantage of over-detection in relation to under-detection) is taken as a sign of a real agent at work. That the reason we are so prone to things like conspiracy theories, imaginary friends, false gods and assigning mindless physical processes like the weather with intelligent cause is because we have somehow been programmed to do so in order to eventually achieve an understanding of some real God. The reason humans are so psychologically inclined to do things like believe that Obama is the anti-christ is all part of some wonderfully convuluted plan of revelation.
Anyway - The facts are simple. Humans can and do invent intelligent agents (including - but not limited to - gods) for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with the actual existence of such entities.
Meanwhile the actual existence of any gods remains as unevidenced as every other evidentially baseless proposition one can name. Last Thursdayism, The magically undetectable Easter Bunny, our old friend the Immaterial Pink Unicorn etc. etc. etc.
So we have an objectively evidenced naturalistic explanation for the existence of god concepts Vs an evidentially baseless supernatural one.
No contest.....

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 467 of 468 (633142)
09-12-2011 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by Chuck77
09-11-2011 2:46 AM


Re: Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
Let's take this to Religious Conversions
See you there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by Chuck77, posted 09-11-2011 2:46 AM Chuck77 has not replied

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