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Author Topic:   Do Christians Worship Different Gods?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 106 of 286 (631389)
08-31-2011 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by iano
08-31-2011 8:07 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
No then.
How do you know. You say that genocide is "a way God used to achieve his ends."
So if I commit genocide, how can you be sure that that isn't a way God is using to achieve his ends?
Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?
Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
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AdminPD
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by iano, posted 08-31-2011 8:07 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by iano, posted 09-01-2011 6:48 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 107 of 286 (631390)
08-31-2011 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by iano
08-31-2011 8:03 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
The problem, Dr. A. is that genocide is commonly thought to be a crime, wrong, unrighteous, unjust.
Yup.
Are you a complete moral vacuum?
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AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by iano, posted 08-31-2011 8:03 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by iano, posted 09-01-2011 6:02 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 108 of 286 (631395)
08-31-2011 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by iano
08-31-2011 7:39 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
iano writes:
If he promises consequences for actions then he is justified in delivering on those promise if he chooses.
That is unrelated to the statement I was questioning.
quote:
That would be an odd position for someone to take - that God should make promises and not keep them!
Why would it be an odd position, unless you expect god to keep his promises?
Why do you expect god to keep his promises?
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AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Always remember: QUIDQUID LATINE DICTUM SIT ALTUM VIDITUR
Science flies you into space; religion flies you into buildings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by iano, posted 08-31-2011 7:39 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Chuck77, posted 09-01-2011 12:25 AM Panda has replied
 Message 112 by IamJoseph, posted 09-01-2011 3:17 AM Panda has not replied
 Message 122 by iano, posted 09-01-2011 6:34 PM Panda has replied

  
Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 286 (631429)
09-01-2011 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Panda
08-31-2011 8:38 PM


Questioning God
Panda writes:
Why would it be an odd position, unless you expect god to keep his promises?
Why do you expect god to keep his promises?
Do you believe in God? Who are you, Panda, to question God and His promises?
If you believe he exists then we can tackle Gods methods. Until then, you have no say in the matter.
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AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Panda, posted 08-31-2011 8:38 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Panda, posted 09-01-2011 6:12 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 110 of 286 (631439)
09-01-2011 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by jar
08-31-2011 8:18 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
quote:
The God you market is evil and without any redeeming qualities.
If it does turn out to be real, the only honorable course would be to oppose it.
You mean a deity called NATURE - who had a white beard and hid in the clouds?
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AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by jar, posted 08-31-2011 8:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 09-01-2011 9:29 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 111 of 286 (631440)
09-01-2011 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Dr Adequate
08-31-2011 7:59 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
quote:
The problem, iano, is that since committing genocide is commonly thought to be worse than breaking a promise, it is hard to feel certain that someone who did the former would cavil at the latter.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If person X commits murder, capital punishment is prescribed.
If nation X commits mass murder, genocide can result.
Critical mass applies. The best way to look at it is making it relevant to its time period. Most ancient nations ceased to subsist because genocide was rampant and in some cases obligatory due to supersticious traidtions. Cursing a nation via a prophet is making a vow of genocide and that it is justified. The nation of Israel is among the few which survived such agendas numerousloy, from Canaan to Europe, and now facing the same again. Its normal history.
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AdminPD
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-31-2011 7:59 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 112 of 286 (631444)
09-01-2011 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Panda
08-31-2011 8:38 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That would be an odd position for someone to take - that God should make promises and not keep them!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gd is Truth. All may approach in truth.
'WHAT IS TRUTH?' - therein is the rub! Faced with absolute truth, which s transcendent of the subjective and objective, we would disintergrate faster than an A bomb can impact. Yesterday's truth is today's lie; this is not absolute truth. None can withstand absolute truth. Yet if it be true that God made a promise - even God cannot change it; this is based on the premise God is Truth; God can alter a curse [negative promise], by the factor of mercy and forgiveness, also Godly attributes; but not so with a positive promise.
Thus the promise of a small patch of land flowing with milk and honey [wow! what a phrase to dish out to salves in bondage!] cannot be negated; even the milk and honey part cannot - thus all who invaded and occupied this land made it a swamp and could not manage it, and were spat out, and they lost all concern for their own lands, which became akin to swamps. Truth.
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AdminPD
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Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 113 of 286 (631457)
09-01-2011 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Chuck77
09-01-2011 12:25 AM


Re: Questioning God
Chuck77 writes:
Do you believe in God? Who are you, Panda, to question God and His promises?
If you look at the posting history, you will see that I am questioning iano and not god.
As far as I am aware, god only lurks on this site and hasn't yet created a login.
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AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.

Always remember: QUIDQUID LATINE DICTUM SIT ALTUM VIDITUR
Science flies you into space; religion flies you into buildings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Chuck77, posted 09-01-2011 12:25 AM Chuck77 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Straggler, posted 09-01-2011 8:25 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 114 of 286 (631484)
09-01-2011 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Panda
09-01-2011 6:12 AM


Re: Questioning God
Panda writes:
As far as I am aware, god only lurks on this site and hasn't yet created a login.
Ahem.
Just because I move in mysterious ways doesn't mean I am not here.
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AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.

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 Message 113 by Panda, posted 09-01-2011 6:12 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 115 of 286 (631489)
09-01-2011 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by IamJoseph
09-01-2011 2:46 AM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
Once again your post is simply totally unrelated to what I said.
Nice try but no, I don't play rabbit holes.
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AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by IamJoseph, posted 09-01-2011 2:46 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


(3)
Message 116 of 286 (631519)
09-01-2011 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by iano
08-31-2011 2:33 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
Let me try to cut to some of the main points rather than responding to each line. If you feel like I unfairly missing something in your reply let me know. I just don't want the number of quote boxes to get exponential.
First the issue of the existence of god.
I am assuming you accept for the sake of discussion that God exists per Bible and you are arguing your case in the light of that.
Yes. And in short, if he exists as defined by you, he is a tyrant. I think all the dancing around the issue of judgement stemmed for what appeared to be a position from you that god's morality is superior BECAUSE he is sovereign. I am challenging that notion. It is perfectly rational the such a god (should he exist) be both sovereign and depraved. We can judge his depravity by adhering to our own standards. Standards which need not be authoritative but merely widely accepted or at least proclaimed.
Your rational thoughts are derived from skewed value judgements (is the argument). When you are equipped (or imprisoned) with the right value judgements the same use of rationality will produce a different outlook.
It's not that you won't be a thinking entity, it's that you won't be free to escape God's value judgements like you are now.
It still seems as though your god is either removing my capability to reason for myself, or injecting me with thoughts that are not my own in order to force me to come to his conclusion. What it seems like you are saying is that in the day of judgement I will not be able to reason that god is evil for the eternity of torture he is about to inflict me with. Is that what you are saying?
As to not avoid your question.
Would you agree that the validity of your position isn't actual and that all conclusions (such a God a tyrant) are subject to re-setting once you are equipped with other value judgement?
To perhaps stop beating around the bush, what I mean is that the value judgement is not authoritative. We can in fact have a better value system that god that you are characterising.
What is God doing in killing sinners (whether as punishment, as discipline, as his purposes in giving life to them being served, etc) that is unrighteous?
Yes according to OUR OWN valuation of life. A rational argument can be made and I hope that most people believe that genocide is abhorrent in all circumstances.
You could the difference in view between GDR and myself is purely the result of cultural influence and God-in-own-image-making. That wouldn't be an irrational conclusion from your position as an unbeliever. If you were a believer however (and assuming that both I and GDR are believers too) you would recognize that in broad lines we hold the position we do because we are believers and on details we differ - perhaps, in part, for the reasons you outline.
What GDR and myself might well agree on, is that we recognize each other as saved people and that this disagreement isn't a central issue in the fact of our being saved people. We would agree that we haven't been saved by the theology we have come to erect to explain how things stitch together.
The details that you differ on say something about you the person. You are my neighbour in a global sense and I am affected by your actions. When enough people believe like you do, and believe it deeply enough, that is when we get cause for the atrocities that you brought up to try to lower the bar of human morals to that of the god you are defending.
I am not saying it always is because of religion. But I can certainly despair as others have throughout history about the plight of mankind due to the moral atrophy that religion causes in people's minds. I understand you disagree, but I despair none the less and I know I am not alone.
So. Do you think God is justified in killing sinners?
Not if he also demands that we consider him good.
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AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by iano, posted 08-31-2011 2:33 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by iano, posted 09-02-2011 2:14 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 117 of 286 (631531)
09-01-2011 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
08-18-2011 11:25 PM


Do Jews, Muslims and Christians Worship Different Gods?
Hi GDR,
I went a long way off topic with my last messages, but it has belatedly occurred to me to ask this; do Christians worship the same God as Jews? As Muslims? Do all three Abrahamic faiths worship the same God?
Of course I think that this question is as unanswerable as the first, but I think it is worth asking. Just a thought.
Mutate and Survive

On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GDR, posted 08-18-2011 11:25 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 09-01-2011 5:34 PM Granny Magda has replied
 Message 134 by GDR, posted 09-01-2011 9:41 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 118 of 286 (631536)
09-01-2011 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Granny Magda
09-01-2011 5:09 PM


Re: Do Jews, Muslims and Christians Worship Different Gods?
Yes and no.
The God of all three is the God of Abraham and Isaac.
But individuals create there own god that they worship.
And it is highly unlikely that either the God or god is GOD.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Granny Magda, posted 09-01-2011 5:09 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Granny Magda, posted 09-01-2011 6:05 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 119 of 286 (631542)
09-01-2011 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Dr Adequate
08-31-2011 8:24 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
Dr. A writes:
Yup. Are you a complete moral vacuum?
It would take a little more than assuming the position under discussion (genocide always wrong) to answer that question..
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AdminPD
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-31-2011 8:24 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 09-01-2011 6:04 PM iano has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 120 of 286 (631543)
09-01-2011 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by iano
09-01-2011 6:02 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
Not really.
Genocide is always morally wrong.
See?
It really is that simple.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by iano, posted 09-01-2011 6:02 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by iano, posted 09-01-2011 6:38 PM jar has replied

  
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