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Author | Topic: Is agnosticism more intellectually honest? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
Its not that simple. If you wake up to find a pink zebra in your bedroom, it will taunt you to find out why. One must conclude the pink zebra was purposefully put there for you to ask that question. You surely won't be satisfied it just happened by a freak of circumstances: what if a green zebra appeared the next morning!?
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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Its not that simple. If you wake up to find a pink zebra in your bedroom, it will taunt you to find out why. Yeah, pink zebras are noted for their taunting ways.
what if a green zebra appeared the next morning!? Green zebras are sympathetic and conciliatory.
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nlerd Member (Idle past 3634 days) Posts: 48 From: Minnesota Joined:
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IamJoseph writes: One must conclude the pink zebra was purposefully put there for you to ask that question. I'm pretty sure my conclusion would be either "Someone stole a zebra from the zoo, dyed it pink and put it in my room to mess with me." or "Someone slipped something into my drink last night....THIS IS AWESOME!"You can't spell "believe" without "lie".
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Wollysaurus, and welcome to the fray.
Is agnosticism more intellectually honest? If you mean is it more honest to say "we don't know" (when in fact we don't know), than it is to state say "I know" then the answer would be yes ... however the issue is a little more nuanced than that. First consider these (modeled after the Dawkins scale):
1 7 The logically invalid positions require objective empirical evidence to substantiate them or they are "dishonest" in claiming something that is not supported by objective empirical evidence. The logically valid positions express uncertainty, and thus are "honest" -- note that this includes both weak atheists with weak theists as well as agnostics. Personally I prefer the term "open-minded skeptic" to "agnostic" as there are religious overtones to "agnostic" while "open-minded skeptic" can apply to non-religious areas as well. Without objective empirical evidence to support a position all we have to determine the "honesty" (validity) of an argument is a logical analysis. This is the analysis used for the above spectrum positions:
Compare:
to:
OR:
If the logical form is true for any X then it is true for Y, now let Y = notX:
... and by the form of the argument, X(a) still can be possibly true ... which is in fact the case, so this is a valid argument, and a true conclusion is reached. 3, 4 and 5 fit this pattern. Possibility is a valid conclusion from a lack of contradictory evidence. versus:
... and by the form of the argument, X(a) is still absolutely true ... which is a contradiction ... unless you have objective empirical evidence that directly contradicts one or the other being true: without such evidence there is a contradiction in the form of the argument and the argument is invalid, falsified, void. As the second premise is the same as above, we see that the first premise is falsified. 1 and 7 fit this pattern and are logically FALSE arguments. OR:
... and by the form of the argument, X(a) is still more likely true than false ... which is a contradiction ... unless you have objective empirical evidence that directly contradicts one or the other being true: without such evidence there is a contradiction in the form of the argument and the argument is invalid, falsified, void. As the second premise is the same as above, we see that the first premise is falsified as well. 2 and 6 fit this pattern and are logically FALSE arguments. The other issue here is whether or not one is espousing an opinion versus making a statement that they claim is true. If I say "I don't know, but my opinion is that god/s do not exist" then that is an honest statement (and fits the "5" category). I don't know, but my opinion is that god/s exist. (I'm a "3") Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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nlerd Member (Idle past 3634 days) Posts: 48 From: Minnesota Joined: |
Yellow on blue hurts my brain.
You can't spell "believe" without "lie".
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Does the same apply to werewolves? If not, why not?
P.S: The terms "weak atheist" and "strong atheist" already have meanings. Those aren't them. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Wollysaurus Member (Idle past 4521 days) Posts: 52 From: US Joined: |
RAZD, thanks for the post. The scale represents what I've come to understand through the many posts here. And it satisfies my need for pictures since I'm used to digesting information in PowerPoint form
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Correct. And becuse those reasons cannot apply for the universe, there is no alternative to your 'someone else' applying to a universe maker. We are left to see only that none and nothing existing in the universe could have made the universe. A process of elimination applies.
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nlerd Member (Idle past 3634 days) Posts: 48 From: Minnesota Joined:
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IamJoseph writes: We are left to see only that none and nothing existing in the universe could have made the universe. GOD slipped something into my drink last night....THIS IS AWESOME!You can't spell "believe" without "lie". Reality trumps logic.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
Aka enymes.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Unless....no alternatives apply! One can get lost in translation. In the Hebrew, 'knows' is derived from union, namely to truely know is to be unionized. So from this POV, to know in our english lexicon one can know without knowing, but one cannot not know and not be unionized. We know that there is no alternatives to the someone-done-it, even without knowing who-done-it. Darwin merely observed and figured out some details how a car works, then shouted Eureka! No car maker. Actually, the reverse applies.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Also an illogical conclusion. A logical conclusion can only be logical here if we see a host of other possibilities which can apply, e.g. zebras are seen making universes all over the place. Remember that Galeleo did not disprove the flat earth merely by rejecting it. He actually had to 'PROVE' a counter. He did. You did not. Creationism, when seen in its correct study, is 100% scientific and logical, with no alternatives on the table: name one and you win?
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Remember that Galeleo did not disprove the flat earth merely by rejecting it. He actually had to 'PROVE' a counter. He did. Are you ever right about anything?
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3698 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
OK, the invention of the telescope did it. I know the flat earth was disputed by many others previously, but the principle applies here. Atheism cannot prove itself, so this factor is neutralized against creationism.
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 9.2 |
It's not a question of belief, that's just flat what the term "intellectually honest" means.
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