Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit

No, it's not. Their first reaction was to request representation of all faiths. Hardly an attempt at censorship. My apologies. I thought you were one of the ones calling AA names just for standing up for something they believe in. Who is "we"? I've no stake in this battle, aside from this particular thread lol. No one said it would be easy, but standing up for what you believe in instead of letting religion get it's way time and time again is, IMO, the right direction to be headed.

I hadn't heard of this cross until I saw this thread...And now that its in the spotlight, and some Christians are most likely seeing this as an "attack" from the atheist**, I do think the AA has made a mistake with this one. Unless they're just going with the whole 'any publicity is good publicity'.So, you think maybe they shouldn't have brought it up? They'd have a better point if it was gonna be the headstone of the memorial, or something, but its 'just another exhibit', isn't it? I'd disagree with it being a tragedy for "all" of mankind, as it was mostly for the West and I'm sure we could come up with some examples of mankind that this wasn't really a tradgety for, but I get what you mean.**not me, I see it as frivolous bitching

Not true. You asked me in Message 126 how it helped and then I speculated on some possibilities in Message 127:

quote:

---

Spiritual comfort in a time of high stress. Increase morale. Some sort of effort consilience. I dunno, I wasn't there. I'm just taking their word for it.

---

You totally ignored that part of my reply in your Message 128...I even repeated myself in Message 178:

quote:

---

I've been looking online for links to those involved explaining how it helped them but haven't found much anything. I've mentioned some ways in which it could've helped already, but it doesn't really matter that much to my position. Even if it was just a mark for a meeting place, then that could help in the rescue. A simple morale boost would be very helpful. The specifics just aren't that important.

---

You're reply to that was a total non-sequitor. I don't want to give that answer because it would be a lie. So all you've got is shit-slinging and Poisoning the Well. A rebuttle to my argument for why it can be included or an argument for why it couldn't would have made for an actual debate, but apparently you're not interested in that. Nah, I think I'll leave it in the secular museum where it belongs.Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

I can't argue that. I still think this mess is a political loser for humanism/secularism/atheism in this society.But then I've been known to be wrong. Frequently.

I had seen it before, but had no idea that it was going back to the memorial til the AA filed a lawsuit. I knew when I posted this topic it would be an interesting read for some of us, many different points of view on this forum.

quote:

---

The trouble with the cross is that it refuses to be the universal symbol of beauty that some would make it out to beit speaks life to those who believe, but death to those who do not.

​

No wonder people disagree about where it should be displayed.

​

Ryan Holladay is pastor of Lower Manhattan Community Church, which meets two blocks from the World Trade Center site.

---

I don't know how common this point of view is with your average Christian, but I think he makes a valid point. The whole article is good, this is from the very end of page 2. Read more...I have been looking for some pictures of its location at the memorial to try and put it in context as to how prominent it is....I don't know if it center stage or what. I don't watch or follow many court cases but I hope this one is shown somewhere. I am interested in how the AA argue it. Yea...sadly I am sure many in the Islamic world celebrated.

Those aren't things that this object provided. Those are things that people attributed to this object because of their religious beliefs in the letter T.A roof provides shade and shelter from the rain. It doesn't matter if you believe in the letter T or if you believe in the letter P and therefore fear the letter T people will murder you. A roof is a roof is a roof. It provides the same thing for all people.Your argument appears to be that this letter T is magical somehow because it used it's magic T powers to provide spiritual comfort for people whom the letter T people are under instructions to murder on sight.That's ridiculous.This is just an example of "T first!" religious nutjobs trying to rub their religion in everyone's face. AGain. So, you've added the additional "museum quality" importance of "a meeting place".An object that "provided a morale boost"??!?! Are you fucking kidding me?Why not spray paint a swastika on the side of a synagogue? That could serve as a meeting place and it would raise morale of some people. Should that be put in a museum as a great moment in Jewish heritage?Fuck no.Does this museum include the coffee shop from across the street? That served as a meeting place AND it raised morale for people of ALL RELIGIONS.This piece of shit is a direct insult to anyone who isn't part of your "T" versus the other letters war. Uh huh. Suuuuuuure that's why.This is why we get so frustrate with you fucking Christians. You can't stop the bullshit long enough to own up to what you are actually saying and doing.You are SERIOUSLY?!?!? here trying to argue that a FUCKING CROSS is NOT a Christian symbol?Give me a fucking break. Even for a Christian that's particularly low. There's nothing to rebut. You've provided NO ARGUMENT.Your _CLAIM_ made with a wink and a hand down some child's pants, is that the letter T is sacred to all religions and is the best possible meeting place.It's pathetic.

I managed to find this image, I think it may be a depiction of how it may be displayed. I don't think this an actual photo of the display, I could be wrong? see more hereSome good stuff about the memorial at here.Nothing on the cross specifically I noticed though.

But apparently it only has this "secular purpose" if displayed as an overtly Christian symbol.Go figure huh........?Why not just admit it's entirely non-secular meaning and advocate it's inclusion as a religious symbol that is historically relevant for it's religious symbolism? That is the only honest approach.Your "secular purpose" argument holds as much water as a leaky bucket.

There is no alternative to humanity being ruled by magestic laws applying equally to all - instead of the BS of preferred names.

Symbols should be as country or group flags and adhere to inalienable human rights and equal justice for all. But when those symbols also harbour death and villification as their core fulcrum reason for their validity, they become illegitimate and obscene.In the future all religions will have to account for themselves - belief cannot be used to negate factual reality and espouse mayhem and murder as a ticket to salvation and paradise. There are no people born of the devil and/or apes - there is only devilish and apish deeds. America's Constitution is perhaps the world's greatest man made document - specifically, it is a rebuff to medevial Europe and Islam's doctrines. The disdained truth is greater than a cherished lie.

Straggler replies to CS: "Leaky" doesn't even get to the half of it.
Try a bucket with no bottom at all.

Nuggin earlier wrote: And here he writes again: Now...at first I kinda chuckled at this line of argument. But now I feel that I have to call Nuggin out for going over the line of reality and putting thoughts in those of the Christian persuasion when they had NO SUCH THOUGHTS.I have marked some good points that Nuggin makes in this thread in my opinion. But I also have to give him a bad mark or 2 over this hyperbole. IMHO.....

Thanks F&L.I can see Elaine Benes in Seinfeld poking her finger repeatedly in the air to Jerry, going "Fake, fake, ...fake, ...fake..."This weirdly struck me as having the vibes of the opening scenes of Jurassic Park...there will probably be a little theater with a film loop and schedule and a hefty admission price....The soon-to-eaten-lawyer muttering to himself "We're gonna make a fortune!"But never mind.

IamJoseph, I take it this would be the majestic law that you personally approve of.There is no alternative to humanity being ruled by magestic laws applying equally to all as long as it is the majestic law as approved by IamJoseph?What happens to the people with a different set of majestic laws?What happens to the people who interpret the majestic laws differently to you?Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.