Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Twins Paradox and the speed of light
Maartenn100
Member (Idle past 4592 days)
Posts: 39
From: Belgium Antwerp
Joined: 08-13-2011


Message 161 of 230 (628961)
08-14-2011 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Panda
08-14-2011 7:07 PM


Re: gravitational theory of relativity
The other 'body' (because you see another observer just as any other body) accelerates according to your point of view (when you could see it) following a curved path. (like we see when an object is falling towards a black hole)
But this is the consequence of the equivalenceprinciple of general relativity:
gravity= acceleration
acceleration means weight
Falling = no weight
so no acceleration.
A Blackholian will accelerate with his star towards you.
Otherwise you are not consequent with the equivalenceprinciple of GRT.
An other observer than you can accelerate towards you from your - frame of reference point of view.
But from your point of view (as an observer of space and time): you are always hanging still and your clock is always the norm for timedilation and movements.
So, you are just hanging there, when the black hole is coming at you. And then you see the light, and then it's too late
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Panda, posted 08-14-2011 7:07 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by jar, posted 08-14-2011 7:46 PM Maartenn100 has not replied
 Message 163 by Panda, posted 08-14-2011 8:09 PM Maartenn100 has not replied

  
Maartenn100
Member (Idle past 4592 days)
Posts: 39
From: Belgium Antwerp
Joined: 08-13-2011


Message 165 of 230 (629024)
08-15-2011 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by cavediver
08-15-2011 3:32 AM


Re: gravitational theory of relativity
I look forward to your answer. Check if my logic is correct:
The basic principles of general relativity =
The difference between an inertial frame of reference and a non-inertial frame of reference = you will measure weight.
You can not tell the difference between hanging still or moving at a constant velocity. But you can tell the difference between an inertial frame of reference and a non-inertial frame of reference. (acceleration)
Any observer on earth - in our real world and not on paper as 'a cordinatesystem' - is in a non-inertial reference frame. (in the real world). Earth is pushing him or her with 1 g.
In relativity you must say: you are in a non-inertial frame of reference. And that's your starting point to measure movement, weight, light bending etc.
So when we draw a cordinatesystem on paper to describe movements on Earth, we loose information about the actual 'reference frame'.
We describe fallen objects as accelerating towards that choosen reference point on Earth, while in reality this 'reference point' is not inertial.
And you can measure that: light is bending on Earth, so you are in a non-inertial frame of reference.
We are accelerating (equivalenceprinciple and gravity) and the objects are just hanging there. (in relativity).
Another example to make my point.
You are in a spaceship to Jupiter and you are travelling at 1 g.
All your instruments will measure 1 g, even when you are on the planet "falling" at 2.7 g (+1g).
Jupiterians will be in there non-inertial frame of reference, accelerated by 2.7g. The planet is pushing them up by 2.7 g.
And you are just measuring, with your measuring devices: constant acceleration towards planet: 1 g.
While you see Jupiter moving towards you at 2.7 g.
So you can measure these accelerations by the bending of the light.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by cavediver, posted 08-15-2011 3:32 AM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Maartenn100, posted 08-15-2011 10:26 AM Maartenn100 has not replied

  
Maartenn100
Member (Idle past 4592 days)
Posts: 39
From: Belgium Antwerp
Joined: 08-13-2011


Message 166 of 230 (629039)
08-15-2011 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Maartenn100
08-15-2011 7:48 AM


Re: gravitational theory of relativity
Cavediver,
I want to clarify the twin paradox in gravitational relativity:
In gravitational relativity, your acceleration is always an acceleration to escape gravity more and more. Because you can not be not in a gravitational field while you are trying to get out these gravitational systems. Acceleration in gravitational relativity means: to escape gravity. (you must follow curved paths to follow straight lines)
So while doing this, the object where you are moving away from is accelerating to, but in the gravitational fields that you are successively leaving.
So the twin on earth begins to spin while you are accelerating outside Earth’s gravity.
So both your accelerations are equal.
And the twin on earth begins to wobble with a moon, while you escape this Earth-moonsystem. So your accelerations are equal.
The twin on Earth starts to travel around its star while turning in circles while you are leaving the solarsystem progressively.
Because, now you are not turning around the sun anymore, so that twin there is turning around itself, wobbling with a moon and going faster and faster around the sun till it reaches the velocity of 30 m/s and then the sun begin to moves, so the object Earth will move more strangely from the travelling twin point of view.
So while this traveling twin is moving away from an object (Earth, a spacestation or ...), this object is not only moving away from him relative to his 'frame of reference', but accelerates too, in the gravitational fields this traveling twin are leaving.
And that's why I think, that when they reunite: they will have the same age.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Maartenn100, posted 08-15-2011 7:48 AM Maartenn100 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by fearandloathing, posted 08-15-2011 1:19 PM Maartenn100 has replied

  
Maartenn100
Member (Idle past 4592 days)
Posts: 39
From: Belgium Antwerp
Joined: 08-13-2011


Message 168 of 230 (629071)
08-15-2011 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by fearandloathing
08-15-2011 1:19 PM


Re: gravitational theory of relativity
Yes, maybe I’m confused about this, but what I mean is:
You say that Earth is already spinning around the sun.
How is this true? The earth spins no faster, or orbits any faster because you left.
.
No: movement is relative!!
There is no absolute movement. (Galile, Einstein, etc)
If you want to be consequent with relativity, such a statement can not be done. There is not "Earth is 'already' moving this way, or Earth is 'already' moving that way". in relativity.
That's thinking in terms of an absolute reference point for movement or not movement'. But there is no such absoluut point to refer to for movement when you are speaking in terms of relativity.
you as an observer, in reality, are always the reference point for movement, acceleration and weight.
Earth is is pushing you with 1g, when you are on Earth. That's relativity. (as I understand it). So you are already in a non-inertial frame of reference.
Earth's point of view is non-inertial.
So first you escape Earth’s 'pushing up' with 1 g:
To leave planet Earth an escape velocity of 11.2 km/s is required.
While you look back: you can measure two things: Earth is leaving you (relative point of view) and accelerates to 11.2 km/s and Earth is also spinning around more and more. These are relativistic observations.
You say:
when you stop accelerating at say 27,500 Mph you become an inertial frame also.
That’s truth, but you do not stop accelerating. (to leave the gravitional field of the sun).
To leave the gravitational field of the sun, a speed of 42.1 km/s is required to escape the Sun’s gravity.
Otherwise you are not talking about ‘gravitational relativity’ but about a uniform gravitational field, and then it’s like in the twinparadox.
You say that Earth is already spinning around the sun. No: movement is relative!!
There is no absolute movement in relativity. (Galile, Einstein, etc).
That's a statement from a certain reference point of view.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by fearandloathing, posted 08-15-2011 1:19 PM fearandloathing has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by cavediver, posted 08-15-2011 4:06 PM Maartenn100 has replied

  
Maartenn100
Member (Idle past 4592 days)
Posts: 39
From: Belgium Antwerp
Joined: 08-13-2011


Message 170 of 230 (629089)
08-15-2011 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by cavediver
08-15-2011 4:06 PM


Re: gravitational theory of relativity
yes, that's truth. You are right.
But it doesn't change the hypothesis, I think.
Acceleration can been measured.
Earth does experience a force: gravity.
The twin paradox only works (in my hipothesis) without calculating gravity in it.
The pseudo-acceleration of Earth is that the other twin is moving away 'relative' from the point of view of the travelling twin.
But Earth's rotation on its axis is an acceleration that is not been calculated in the twinparadox.
Nor is the Earth's rotation around the sun or the sun's rotation in the starsystem calculated in the twinparadox.
gravity gives us also a point of view in the universe:
Force on Earth from the Moon
+ Force on the Earth from the Sun.
+ Force on Earth from the black hole in the centre of the galaxy.
Force from moving galaxyclusters etc.
These are relativistic movements of Earth in the universe, depending on the position of the observer in the gravitational field. (you).
My idea is that the difference in time by the gravitational timedilation and the always normal ticking clock of the observer, makes the objects begins to move. (observation of movement by different clocks)
The observer is the measure of time and space. Not a pure mathematical 'coordinatesystem'.
But a zeropoint in the material world: the existing observer.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by cavediver, posted 08-15-2011 4:06 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by cavediver, posted 08-15-2011 4:40 PM Maartenn100 has replied

  
Maartenn100
Member (Idle past 4592 days)
Posts: 39
From: Belgium Antwerp
Joined: 08-13-2011


Message 172 of 230 (629097)
08-15-2011 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by cavediver
08-15-2011 4:40 PM


Re: gravitational theory of relativity
Ok, we are talking about General Relativity, so we should not be talking about "gravity".
We are talking about the real world where gravity is everywhere.
The Earth orbiting the Earth-Moon system, which is orbiting the Sun, which is orbiting the centre of the Galaxy (with its supermassive black hole), which is orbiting in the Local Group, which is, etc, etc... all of this is free-fall - it is the closest you can get to "not accelerating". This is following the straightest path through space-time.
Yes it's freefall, but when you are in the vicinity of a heavy object, this object will begin to rotate (it's a bad ellips because of its own gravity) while you are moving away from it.
And this 'beginning to rotate' is an observation of movement of that body.
That rotation wasn't there before, given your reference point. That rotation of Earth is - in relativity - also no absolute movement, like you said earlier. It's relative, given a reference point (of an observer).
But the acceleration from 0 till the full rotation of the Earth is a measurable fact.
And pay attention: rotation is centripetal acceleration.
So: it's acceleration.
Gravitational timedilation makes us see these centripetal accelerations of these bodies.
Like when you are standing still in a gravitational field and your twinbrother is travelling near the speed of light. His clock will tick different.
In gravitational relativity (relativity in the gravitational field) your difference in time, by gaining hight (gravitational timedilation) has no lengthcontraction as result.
But you will see path's curved who weren't curved before. And you will see things that followed a straight line, now following a circular path.
And you will see that this whole object begins too in a centripetal acceleraton.
That's gravitational relativity.
That's a relative movement given a referencepoint in the gravitational field.
Do you understand what I mean?
The only real acceleration is that of the twin stood on the Earth - accelerated upwards by the surface of the Earth, and accelerated around the Earth by friction and air resistance.
The Earth was accelerating towards the twin with 1 g, that's right.
But the rotation of the earth is also a movement of an object (Earth) that is not absolute. That movement of that object is also relative!!!
It begins to move given a certain position, from an observer point of view (in the real world). So it accelerates given that referencepoint.
Do you understand?
When you think in terms of relativity, there is not an absolute movement.
All the other Newtonian motion and acceleration (around the Sun, Galaxy, etc) is free-fall (i.e. not acceleration) in General Relativity. And this slight acceleration from the Earth's surface is tiny compared to the relativistic acceleration of the twin's relativistic space-craft.
Yes, maybe that's truth.
As the twin accelerates away from Earth, she sees her twin accelerate away, but this is not real. The Earth-bound twin still only experiences the 1G upward acceleration, no matter how much acceleration her twin thinks she must be experiencing.
The rotation (centripetal acceleration) is real.
And if the twin in the space-ship uses her telescope to observer her twin on the Earth, she will see the force gauge proving that she is experiencing no greater acceleration.
In a centripetal way: yes.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : language issues (I'm dutch)
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by cavediver, posted 08-15-2011 4:40 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by cavediver, posted 08-15-2011 5:26 PM Maartenn100 has replied

  
Maartenn100
Member (Idle past 4592 days)
Posts: 39
From: Belgium Antwerp
Joined: 08-13-2011


Message 174 of 230 (629099)
08-15-2011 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by cavediver
08-15-2011 5:26 PM


Re: gravitational theory of relativity
I'm sorry, I don't know what you are talking about. Why should a non-rotating object begin to rotate?
Euhm, are you from another world?
When you are leaving Earth and you are above Earth. Do you see the Earth rotation yes or no?
That's movement.
There is nothing relativistic about this. It is simple Gallilean Relativity
That seems a contradiction to me. "It's not relativistic at all, it's x - Relativity."
Yes it's about the coriolisline, but also about Earths ellipsode form.
But maybe you are right on the twins: gravity is negliblible.
I want to learn more about that!!!!
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by cavediver, posted 08-15-2011 5:26 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by fearandloathing, posted 08-15-2011 6:21 PM Maartenn100 has not replied
 Message 176 by NoNukes, posted 08-15-2011 10:43 PM Maartenn100 has not replied
 Message 177 by cavediver, posted 08-16-2011 8:15 AM Maartenn100 has replied

  
Maartenn100
Member (Idle past 4592 days)
Posts: 39
From: Belgium Antwerp
Joined: 08-13-2011


Message 178 of 230 (629211)
08-16-2011 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by cavediver
08-16-2011 8:15 AM


Re: gravitational theory of relativity
No, these coriolisforces can be interpreted as forces in another 'timedimension' in the gravitational field.
It's a curved path in the sky, because time is different there then on Earth. (according to our point of view an our clocks on Earth).
Because when you follow this coriolispath in the sky, you think you go straight forward.
When Earth rotates "in reality", it doesn’t only do this around it’s axis, but also with a moon, a sun etc. And in that case ‘the corioliseffect’ would be very different.
A real ball in the sky turning around the sun, around itself and around a moon would have another corioliseffect, like we see it.
So all these movement are related to timedilation. Relative to our normal time on Earth.
So the corioliseffect is an effect in gravitational relativity because of the relative difference in time.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by cavediver, posted 08-16-2011 8:15 AM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2011 1:00 PM Maartenn100 has replied

  
Maartenn100
Member (Idle past 4592 days)
Posts: 39
From: Belgium Antwerp
Joined: 08-13-2011


Message 180 of 230 (629975)
08-21-2011 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by NoNukes
08-21-2011 1:00 PM


Re: gravitational theory of relativity
The first indication that you are on the wrong track is when you claim that current physics is all wrong.
I don't claim that current physics is all wrong.
The coriolis effect is perfectly well explained using Newtonian mechanics.
I agree.
But, I think (I'm not sure) the coriolisforce can also been seen as curvature of movements as an illusion-effect in a non-uniform gravitational field like lengthcontraction is for velocity in a uniform gravitational field near the speed of light.
It's an effect as the result of a timedifference or different clocks for different observers: a straighforward path for them above us, is a curved path from your point of view on Earth and vice versa.
It's just my hypothesis, and I know that there is a hugh probabiliy that I'm wrong. And I do not claim that it's science. It's just a point of view, based on reasoning.
The curvature of the paths correlates with the difference between clocks.
Because I have reason to believe that when gravity is involved: motion is relative. Motion in gravity is related to your point of view in the gravitational field.
On the moon, the moon stands still, And Earth moves strange from there. (wobbles).
On the sun, you can see Earht move around it at 30 m/s.
You are standing still on the sun. (hypothetically speaking)
On mars, you stand still to. And from there Earth will move different too.
Relative motions, given your point of view in the gravitational field.
Cavediver answered that the corioliseffect is evidence for the rotation of the Earth in science.
My response was thatthat the corioliseffect would be different if Earth also was rotating with the moon (wobbles) and around the sun at 30m/s.
F.e. if a big object as Earth rotates around itself and at the same time rotates around the sun at 30m/s, the coriolisforce, seen on it would also be an effect of the rotation around the sun, the rotation in the solarsystem etc.
Take a rotating disc on a very big rotating disc, placed on an even bigger rotating disc. Would you see a corioliseffect on the disc on the top like on the disc below - according to your observer point of view on that disc?
No. Of course not.
You will see a different kind of effect, relative to your point of view on that rotating disc.
On Earth we only see the corioliseffect as an effect of the rotation of the Earth. Why?
Because our clock ticks normal, so movements above our head, in another time must curve.
Like when you are above the Earth: the earth must move, from your new point of view there, because of the difference in time. And the coriolisforce is a straight line, seen from above.
But when you are outside the solarsystem, you would see that rotationg Earth also move around the sun with a speed of 30 m/s. And from there, the coriolisforce on Earth would be seen different too. Because Earth will make spiral moves seen from that out-of-the-solarsystem-point of view.
You - as an observer of space and time - are the reference point to meausure movements in the gravitational field.
Hubble discovered that all starclusters are redshifting, from your point of view. Wherever you are, you will see everything redshifting at the bounderies of space and time-measurement form your point of view.
Why doesn' you see it between Earth and the moon? Or Earth and Mars?
Because it's an optical illusion.
That's why I think that gravity shows us relative movements, given a point of view. No real movements. And the redshift is not the evidence of a Big Bang. It's just an illusion, like lengthcontraction is for velocity. It's a relativity-effect of gravity and timedifference.
But it's my hypothesis. I do not claim it's science!! (science is better than my hypothesis).
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2011 1:00 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2011 7:25 PM Maartenn100 has replied

  
Maartenn100
Member (Idle past 4592 days)
Posts: 39
From: Belgium Antwerp
Joined: 08-13-2011


Message 182 of 230 (630788)
08-27-2011 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by NoNukes
08-21-2011 7:25 PM


Re: gravitational theory of relativity
Interesting.
I made two (short) videos of my theory:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AmQivXHPLU
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HajVl6bKZc
have fun.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2011 7:25 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024