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Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Well you have gone completely off-topic, largely off-point and utterly into preach mode now.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3674 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
those who are not Christians may well have a case when objecting to it as part of a memorial that is supposed to represent them and those that they have lost equally. Moslems, Hindus, atheists etc. See, that's where I have a problem - the cross had significance to (allegedly) a large number of those clearing the site, and so that is all that maaters. I don't give a shit that the significance was religious, and I have zero interest in anyone having a problem with it, whether atheist or other-religion. It's not there for them, it's there for those that found it significant. If a bunch of Moslem workers found a crescent shaped girder that spoke to them of Allah's grace, and that He obviously frowned on the actions of OBL and co., then that could be included as well. And I would have just as little time for the enevitable shit-storm that would ensue
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 832 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
It's not there for them, it's there for those that found it significant. Then the ones who found it significant, and likeminded individuals, should be the ones who should fund it. Instead, the funding is from the government, which means people who oppose it still have to pay for it."Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3674 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Instead, the funding is from the government, which means people who oppose it still have to pay for it. There is much art in which I personally have little interest, and some that positively annoys the fuck out of me, but my taxes still pay for the national museums to buy the stuff. I guess it's called being part of "society".
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
CS did you ever actually read what I wrote in Message 150....? Yes, did you read what I wrote in my reply in Message 151?
Your much stated position is that this thing has "secular purpose". It has no role or purpose except as a religious symbol. Why can't you juts admit that and then make a case for it's inclusion anyway? Because I do think it has a secular purpose. Did you see my Message 191?
AZ has made the best case for it's inclusion whilst acknowledging that it's entire historical significance is as a religious symbol. Symbolism which is completely lost if the thing is displayed as anything other than a religious symbol. Why can't you do the same without bleating on about "secular purpose". I already have. These two positions are compatible.
So (again) - Answer me one question honestly and non-evasively. If this "secular" item were displayed in the museum upside down would those who want it included in the museum be happy with that display choice? If not why not? I don't know. "Those who want it included" is not some homogeneous group that could be blanketly described as being happy or unhappy with that display choice. I already answered that the cross displayed upside-down might be seen as disrespectful to the rescuers who were there that got the help from it.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
cavdiver writes:
quote: Which means it belongs in a church, not a museum. Stuff in a museum belongs because it is significant to all since history is for everyone, not just the faithful.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes:
quote: That isn't a secular purpose. Your own source indicates that it's a sectarian purpose:
This steel remnant became a symbol of spiritual comfort That's not a secular purpose. That is solely a religious purpose. Ergo, it doesn't belong in a museum. It belongs in a church.
quote: Which is proof positive that it has no secular purpose, only sectarian.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
cavediver responds to me:
quote: Incorrect. The number of people venerating an object doesn't turn a religious object into something secular. What secular purpose does this particular object serve? Note, it cannot be traced back to "people thought it was a Christian sign." That's a sectarian purpose. We need a secular one. Be specific. The closest that has been put forward is that it was used as a meeting point. As an obvious object in the debris, that makes sense. But nothing happened at this meeting point other than meetings. There is no historical significance to this item unless you're holding back. What secular purpose does this particular object serve?Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
IamJoseph writes:
quote: (*blink!*) You did not just say that, did you?
quote: That's not the Golden Rule. That's the Silver Rule. And no, I'm not making that up. The Golden Rule is, as everyone knows, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." The Silver Rule is, "Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you." Carl Sagan proposed two more: Brazen Rule: Do unto others as they do unto you. Iron Rule: Do unto others as you like before they do it to you.
quote: So why is it whenever we invade another country to establish a democracy, we never establish an American-style government? It's always a European-style government? We've never helped a country establish a Congress...always a Parliament.
quote: Which is proof that this piece of debris doesn't belong in a museum but rather a church.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
IamJoseph writes:
quote: Incorrect. The Golden Rule is not Christian. Many cultures have come up with it. Babylon, Egypt, Greece, China, they all came up with it. What you put forward is the Silver Rule. It, too, is not Christian in origin and has been discovered in many cultures.
quote: And yet Europe is doing so much better than America.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
cavediver writes:
quote: Then so much for the First Amendment. I realize you're British, but we have a specific rule here in the US that directly singles out religion as a special case. The government doesn't get to regulate religion and religion doesn't get to meddle in the government.
quote: Incorrect. It had significance to only some workers on the site. And that significance was completely religious in nature. Thus, it doesn't belong in a museum. It belongs in a church.
quote: Incorrect. The exact opposite conclusion is called for: Its only significance is religious and thus, it doesn't belong in a museum. It belongs in a church.
quote: Then so much for the First Amendment.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3699 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Put your thinking cap on. Isabela of Spain killed off 1000's of innocent folk with that same doctrine, boasting 'BETTER TO DESTROY THEIR BODIES AND SAVE THEIR SOULS". Does anyone remember an empire called Spain anymore! Her evil deeds made Europe irrelevent, ushering the founding of America - by a hidden Jew. Penicilin saves. Penicilin kills. Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3699 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Don't you mean Eurostan?
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3699 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: This was a pre-christian Jewish symbol, emerging after Rome invaded Judea around 150 BCE. It was meant to signify an omen of death [cricifixion; a Roman doctrine]. It became a Christian symbol after 400 CE.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3674 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
The government doesn't get to regulate religion and religion doesn't get to meddle in the government. I get that. What has that to do with what is included in a national museum? Are all religious artefacts to be excluded? On a publicly-funded archaeological dig, are religious sites to be ignored? On a publicly-funded sociological study, are religious beliefs to be ignored?
Incorrect. It had significance to only some workers on the site. And that significance was completely religious in nature. Thus, it doesn't belong in a museum. It belongs in a church. Let us, for sake of argument, say that it had significance to *all* the workers on the site. Do you still maintain that it does not belong in a museum? Let us, for sake of argument, say that my heart-shaped girder had significance to *all* the workers on the site. Could that belong in a museum? Let us, for sake of argument, say that my OSL-shaped girder had significance to *all* the workers on the site. Could that belong in a museum?
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